WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:01.000 --> 00:00:04.430 Don Hill: Let the art guys go to where you are not comfortable to go. 00:00:04.700 --> 00:00:09.140 If you're a scientist, work with art people, work with crazy people 00:00:09.140 --> 00:00:12.950 like me because I can fall flat on my arse and it won't matter. 00:00:13.460 --> 00:00:19.130 You might lose your grant, uh, if you do the things that I do in some cases. 00:00:19.460 --> 00:00:22.550 So feed me your crazy ideas scientists. 00:00:23.450 --> 00:00:23.840 Right? 00:00:24.079 --> 00:00:26.090 And we'll, and we'll work with them, okay? 00:00:26.329 --> 00:00:27.200 Because we can. 00:00:27.530 --> 00:00:29.269 And same thing with Jody and Gabrielle. 00:00:29.480 --> 00:00:30.620 These are nice people. 00:00:30.740 --> 00:00:34.760 I've reviewed their work and, um, I think they're, they're ready for an adventure. 00:00:35.030 --> 00:00:35.870 Have I got that right? 00:00:36.155 --> 00:00:36.394 Gab: Yes, 00:00:36.619 --> 00:00:37.610 Jody: I think so. 00:00:37.610 --> 00:00:41.570 I think we've tapped into something very recently that's, uh, that's 00:00:41.570 --> 00:00:42.769 taking us in this direction. 00:00:42.769 --> 00:00:42.949 Yeah. 00:00:43.067 --> 00:00:43.159 Gab: Yeah. 00:00:44.223 --> 00:00:47.073 Intro: There is nothing wrong with your podcast streaming service. 00:00:47.553 --> 00:00:48.933 We now control your device. 00:00:49.593 --> 00:00:50.853 This is not a test. 00:00:50.973 --> 00:00:53.043 This is Podcast of the Paranormal. 00:00:53.403 --> 00:00:56.103 Close your curtains and stay away from your windows. 00:00:56.433 --> 00:00:57.513 Lock your doors. 00:00:57.603 --> 00:00:58.803 Turn off your lights. 00:00:59.103 --> 00:01:00.903 Get your snacks and drinks ready. 00:01:01.173 --> 00:01:03.033 Get to your basement or attic. 00:01:03.513 --> 00:01:05.673 The podcast is about to begin. 00:01:11.028 --> 00:01:12.140 Gab: Hello friends. 00:01:12.200 --> 00:01:15.920 We want to welcome you to a special series of conversations. 00:01:16.370 --> 00:01:20.390 We're pulling back the veil on how our perspectives have shifted since 00:01:20.390 --> 00:01:21.710 we first started this journey. 00:01:22.220 --> 00:01:25.880 For years, the standard narrative of the paranormal felt sufficient. 00:01:26.315 --> 00:01:30.365 The idea that hauntings are strictly the echoes or spirits 00:01:30.395 --> 00:01:32.015 of those who have passed on. 00:01:32.435 --> 00:01:36.935 But through our dedicated research and countless hours in the field, we found 00:01:36.935 --> 00:01:41.255 that the haunted world is far more crowded and complex than we once imagined. 00:01:41.705 --> 00:01:44.825 We're no longer satisfied with the singular explanation. 00:01:45.230 --> 00:01:49.640 Instead, we've begun to engage with the possibility of thought forms, 00:01:49.700 --> 00:01:54.710 elusive cryptids, and ancient entities that seem to exist entirely 00:01:54.710 --> 00:01:56.120 outside the human experience. 00:01:56.969 --> 00:01:59.813 Jody: This is the first conversation of a multi-part series. 00:01:59.870 --> 00:02:02.840 Where we explore the deep intersection between the external unknown 00:02:02.900 --> 00:02:06.076 and the internal self, we are increasingly looking at the role 00:02:06.076 --> 00:02:10.216 of human consciousness, questioning whether our brains may be the primary 00:02:10.216 --> 00:02:12.406 architects of the activity we record. 00:02:12.916 --> 00:02:17.146 This new perspective is a pivot towards more cerebral and multifaceted 00:02:17.146 --> 00:02:20.626 understanding of high strangeness marking a new chapter for us. 00:02:21.028 --> 00:02:24.838 Over the next few episodes, we'll be showcasing evidence and experiences that 00:02:24.838 --> 00:02:27.028 continue to lead us to these conclusions. 00:02:27.178 --> 00:02:30.988 Challenging traditional boundaries of what it means to communicate with the unseen. 00:02:31.495 --> 00:02:35.515 We only ask that you remain curious and maintain your childlike sense of wonder. 00:02:36.655 --> 00:02:36.685 I. 00:02:43.110 --> 00:02:46.170 Gab: Today we are here with Don Hill. 00:02:46.410 --> 00:02:49.800 We are very excited about this interview and we can't wait to talk to him. 00:02:50.319 --> 00:02:54.035 So would you like to introduce yourself and tell us a little 00:02:54.035 --> 00:02:57.450 bit about yourself and how you came to work with Dr. Persinger? 00:02:58.000 --> 00:02:58.800 Don Hill: Gabrielle, thanks. 00:02:58.800 --> 00:03:01.800 Um, first off, it's, it's great to be able to speak to you in the, 00:03:01.980 --> 00:03:06.390 the great state of Pennsylvania, uh, people who are grounded in, uh, 00:03:06.690 --> 00:03:08.640 logic and all these kinds of things. 00:03:09.060 --> 00:03:09.900 Um, yeah. 00:03:10.080 --> 00:03:14.430 So in all seriousness, um, my reputation here in this country, I'm in Canada 00:03:14.430 --> 00:03:17.620 right now, and I'm specifically speaking from Western Canada. 00:03:17.990 --> 00:03:22.410 Uh, I'm in the former petroleum paradise of the province of Alberta. 00:03:22.830 --> 00:03:26.340 Uh, and with the price of oil spike the way it is, it's happy days are here again. 00:03:26.820 --> 00:03:31.620 But to be very serious about this, I 25 years ago, actually more 00:03:31.620 --> 00:03:36.390 than that, my job at the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, which is 00:03:36.390 --> 00:03:38.460 like National Public Radio in America. 00:03:38.970 --> 00:03:44.670 Uh, I was at a, a network radio host of a program called Tapestry or Travesty, 00:03:44.670 --> 00:03:45.990 depending on your point of view. 00:03:46.440 --> 00:03:53.165 Um, and my job was, I was the only religion reporter in the whole of 00:03:53.165 --> 00:03:54.725 the country, at least on radio. 00:03:55.235 --> 00:03:58.235 I'm not talking about private radio where people are going on about 00:03:58.235 --> 00:03:59.225 this, that, and the other thing. 00:03:59.645 --> 00:04:01.445 Uh, and Sunday service, I'm talking about. 00:04:02.210 --> 00:04:04.550 Speaking to different ontologies. 00:04:04.580 --> 00:04:06.290 Now, what do I mean by ontology? 00:04:06.680 --> 00:04:12.020 Well, ontology is a way of knowing, and typically in ontology is a set of beliefs 00:04:12.980 --> 00:04:15.560 and rituals that give rise to a culture. 00:04:16.010 --> 00:04:19.370 So once you understand what the rituals and beliefs are, you'll 00:04:19.370 --> 00:04:23.060 understand the culture when people do the things that they do, including 00:04:23.060 --> 00:04:24.350 the world that we have right now. 00:04:24.350 --> 00:04:28.520 And that was my job as a religious reporter, was investigating ontologies 00:04:28.850 --> 00:04:33.230 and whether it was Buddhist practice or for that matter, walking, uh, as a 00:04:33.240 --> 00:04:35.540 Jain Monk does, there is such a thing. 00:04:35.960 --> 00:04:39.260 Uh, and finding her way to salvation or whatever. 00:04:39.560 --> 00:04:40.850 That was my job. 00:04:41.150 --> 00:04:46.390 But that wasn't my job at the time I experienced a ghost in my house 00:04:47.050 --> 00:04:51.220 that I owned in the Canadian Rocky Mountains close to a town called 00:04:51.220 --> 00:04:53.220 Banff, it really threw us a loop. 00:04:53.250 --> 00:04:54.630 We actually moved out of the house. 00:04:54.990 --> 00:05:00.780 That complete story recounted, um, in a variety of documentaries I did, some 00:05:00.780 --> 00:05:03.360 of which you can see on, um, YouTube. 00:05:03.900 --> 00:05:05.850 Um, and um, we can talk about that later. 00:05:06.270 --> 00:05:10.050 But what struck me at the time of this ghost that we have now is, and 00:05:10.050 --> 00:05:15.390 the polzer guys effects and all the discomfort and noise and the fact that 00:05:15.390 --> 00:05:19.620 the house had a checkered reputation, divorces and all this kind of stuff. 00:05:20.190 --> 00:05:23.010 So later on with, you know, me being the national reporter at 00:05:23.010 --> 00:05:25.410 the CBC among other things, um. 00:05:26.115 --> 00:05:30.105 I would say to people, uh, you know, I heard about this story, about this 00:05:30.105 --> 00:05:34.275 thing in the house, but you know, mining area and geophysical faults. 00:05:34.275 --> 00:05:36.495 And there, there were reports that this guy said there was 00:05:36.495 --> 00:05:37.545 something about these reports. 00:05:38.055 --> 00:05:40.995 And people would look at me and, and they would acknowledge 00:05:40.995 --> 00:05:42.105 that there's something in this. 00:05:42.645 --> 00:05:46.035 And then eventually I came out of the closet, so to speak, and said, well, 00:05:46.035 --> 00:05:47.895 the, the guy I'm talking about is me. 00:05:48.765 --> 00:05:49.965 I had this experience. 00:05:50.505 --> 00:05:56.985 And by that time, um, I had a number of other people, uh, notably producers 00:05:57.645 --> 00:06:02.805 who agreed that this was a story that we could tell as journalism, not a 00:06:02.805 --> 00:06:08.445 sensationalism, but it's something that we could have a look at seriously. 00:06:09.285 --> 00:06:09.465 And 00:06:09.465 --> 00:06:14.715 that brought me to Michael Persinger, who was the only guy above the phone, 00:06:14.715 --> 00:06:20.685 so to speak, who was making the relationship between ghosts as taking them 00:06:20.685 --> 00:06:23.595 seriously or these kinds of encounters. 00:06:24.195 --> 00:06:29.205 And whether or not the frame of reference at the time, meaning, well, I'm having 00:06:29.205 --> 00:06:32.085 this experience, this must be a ghost. 00:06:32.585 --> 00:06:34.175 That's what our culture tells us. 00:06:34.535 --> 00:06:36.425 That's what the ontology tells us. 00:06:36.755 --> 00:06:41.075 It tells us this must be this, but person gr went one step further. 00:06:41.615 --> 00:06:46.595 You realize that there was a relationship between geography, in other words, 00:06:46.595 --> 00:06:50.765 where you are on the planet and being on the planet, and just being human. 00:06:51.245 --> 00:06:55.865 Human in the sense that if I give you a little pinch of this certain dust and 00:06:55.865 --> 00:07:00.095 suddenly you start to see hallucinations that aren't hallucinations when the 00:07:00.095 --> 00:07:04.345 dust wears off, what happens if the fufu and fairy dust in this state 00:07:04.405 --> 00:07:09.955 instance is where your located on the planet that something may or may not 00:07:09.955 --> 00:07:16.585 be happening underfoot, a geophysical response to what is in the culture 00:07:16.585 --> 00:07:18.175 at the time which you call a ghost? 00:07:18.505 --> 00:07:22.015 Could you induce a synthetic ghost? 00:07:22.515 --> 00:07:27.795 And the answer, I found out 3000 kilometers, approximately 2,500 00:07:27.795 --> 00:07:30.255 miles from where I experienced it. 00:07:30.255 --> 00:07:35.295 I was in a lab in a small university in Lorencia University in Sudbury Ontario. 00:07:35.835 --> 00:07:38.475 I have my temporal lobes stimulated. 00:07:38.475 --> 00:07:42.345 Now, the temporal lobes on either side of your head, just above your ears 00:07:42.345 --> 00:07:50.055 actually about in area, and several pulsed energies in a isolated room. 00:07:50.835 --> 00:07:52.245 And I experienced my ghost again. 00:07:52.745 --> 00:07:55.565 But more important, I experienced the fear. 00:07:56.065 --> 00:07:56.445 Jody: Oh wow. 00:07:56.940 --> 00:07:57.930 Don Hill: So I wrote it all off. 00:07:57.930 --> 00:07:59.940 I said, oh, obviously this is all in my head. 00:07:59.940 --> 00:08:01.620 We can all go back to business right now. 00:08:02.340 --> 00:08:03.837 Uh, not so fast. 00:08:04.130 --> 00:08:04.160 Okay. 00:08:04.160 --> 00:08:07.820 Like I said earlier, ontologies, rituals, beliefs. 00:08:08.300 --> 00:08:15.020 The question is maybe I've was stimulated to increase my bandwidth in order to 00:08:15.020 --> 00:08:16.970 perceive something that was already there. 00:08:17.660 --> 00:08:21.440 And that's a question that I'll just throw back at you, uh, 00:08:21.470 --> 00:08:23.000 for your listeners to consider. 00:08:23.690 --> 00:08:28.160 It's not to ridicule people, it's to understand maybe some people have 00:08:28.160 --> 00:08:33.110 more bandwidths to see something that may already be there or maybe not. 00:08:33.610 --> 00:08:37.785 Jody: Yeah, we try to you know, we try to stay away from, saying that certain people 00:08:37.785 --> 00:08:43.615 are, um, special in a way, but the more we're doing this kind of stuff, I really 00:08:43.615 --> 00:08:47.505 do see that some people really kind of pick up on this stuff more than others, 00:08:48.005 --> 00:08:50.030 you know, and I have to wonder what's going on there. 00:08:50.238 --> 00:08:51.773 Don Hill: Yeah, Jody, it's just this. 00:08:52.323 --> 00:08:55.698 Gabrielle, make sure you in here otherwise, it's gonna be two guys talking. 00:08:56.358 --> 00:08:56.748 Okay? 00:08:57.738 --> 00:09:01.178 Um, like I said, I'm an older guy right now and I've at this for some 00:09:01.178 --> 00:09:04.675 time and I should mention that for everything I'm talking about, you 00:09:04.675 --> 00:09:10.645 can go to, uh, Don Hill, my name, D-O-N-H-I-L-L, one word, dot substack. 00:09:10.775 --> 00:09:13.045 dot com (donhill.substack.com), uh, subscribe. 00:09:13.135 --> 00:09:13.605 It's free. 00:09:14.295 --> 00:09:17.115 And what I'm doing is I'm putting up everything that I'm talking about, 00:09:17.775 --> 00:09:21.135 uh, including all the conversations I've had over the last 25, 30 years, 00:09:21.825 --> 00:09:23.775 and, uh, let the listener decide. 00:09:23.775 --> 00:09:24.885 But the data are good. 00:09:25.215 --> 00:09:26.055 That's what I'm trying to get at. 00:09:26.535 --> 00:09:30.795 The data are solid, and I think there are special people. 00:09:30.795 --> 00:09:33.205 I'm just going to have to differ with you for a moment. 00:09:33.525 --> 00:09:34.915 Not to be mean, Jody. 00:09:35.685 --> 00:09:39.225 Not be mean, But there are exceptional athletes in the world. 00:09:39.225 --> 00:09:41.325 We, that's why we have the Olympics, right? 00:09:42.075 --> 00:09:46.325 So why wouldn't, why wouldn't we have exceptional psychonauts? 00:09:47.535 --> 00:09:52.035 I'm not talking about psychos, I'm talking about people who have an ability 00:09:52.035 --> 00:09:57.315 to perceive things in ways that you, as regular humans, so to speak, can't. 00:09:57.975 --> 00:09:58.725 It's latent. 00:09:59.415 --> 00:10:02.865 I mean, for example, everybody's born and we learn how to do these 00:10:02.865 --> 00:10:06.495 things, I suppose, but what is it about Olympic athletes that make them 00:10:06.585 --> 00:10:08.405 a cut above well, the number thing, 00:10:08.585 --> 00:10:09.225 Jody: Well, their training. 00:10:09.435 --> 00:10:10.195 Don Hill: Yeah, they train. 00:10:10.285 --> 00:10:13.255 That's my point, but essentially they're essentially out of the gate 00:10:13.255 --> 00:10:17.672 they're gifted with a certain physiology and predisposition to be good at 00:10:17.672 --> 00:10:18.792 the things they they're good at. 00:10:18.802 --> 00:10:21.242 So that's my only little quivel with what you said, Jody. 00:10:21.242 --> 00:10:23.312 I think there are some exceptional people. 00:10:24.094 --> 00:10:27.491 Gab: So you had, been working with. 00:10:27.901 --> 00:10:28.851 Dr. Persinger. 00:10:29.271 --> 00:10:34.126 And he is working with the device that's known as the God helmet. 00:10:34.156 --> 00:10:34.546 Right. 00:10:35.046 --> 00:10:35.556 So how 00:10:35.556 --> 00:10:37.956 did that kind of come to be for you? 00:10:38.206 --> 00:10:41.476 Don Hill: Well, as I was mentioning just a few moments ago, and I should mention the, 00:10:41.746 --> 00:10:49.486 the God helmet as it's called, uh, was a co-invented by Stanley Koren, K-O-R-E-N. 00:10:49.996 --> 00:10:55.156 Uh, and I just saw Stan last month, uh, and we had a, a, a wonderful time together 00:10:55.156 --> 00:10:56.566 talking about these kinds of things. 00:10:56.896 --> 00:11:02.626 But the word or the words, the God helmet, was coined by a journalist, uh, 00:11:02.716 --> 00:11:07.771 to essentially, well, what journalists do is to make sense of what, what, but, but 00:11:07.776 --> 00:11:09.286 it's actually called the Koren Helmet. 00:11:09.766 --> 00:11:14.326 And the other point is that if you wanted to, to to see it, or, 00:11:14.356 --> 00:11:18.176 uh, some of it's actually in the Smithsonian now in Washington, ever 00:11:18.176 --> 00:11:21.279 hear of that one, the, the Koren element's sitting in the Smithsonian. 00:11:21.729 --> 00:11:28.659 And the Museum of Modern Art in New York also has, um, I was part of an exhibition 00:11:28.659 --> 00:11:30.939 there, uh, of that particular time. 00:11:31.239 --> 00:11:35.439 So where I come into play as, as I mentioned earlier, as I was seeking 00:11:35.499 --> 00:11:40.179 answers for the ghost in my house, it led me to Persinger's lab, and 00:11:40.179 --> 00:11:42.129 then I volunteered as a subject. 00:11:42.549 --> 00:11:47.139 And that's how I re-experienced the ghost again, was, uh, being subjected 00:11:47.139 --> 00:11:51.159 to, I guess, the, uh, subtle pulsed energies of the Koren helmet. 00:11:51.479 --> 00:11:52.003 Jody: Oh wow. 00:11:52.168 --> 00:11:53.059 And you did this willingly. 00:11:53.559 --> 00:11:55.899 Don Hill: Well, it's, it's something that, um. 00:11:56.399 --> 00:12:01.604 It is actually naturally occurring in nature, in so-called special places. 00:12:02.324 --> 00:12:06.194 Um, now, if you and I were to go over to, uh, the great state, the Granite 00:12:06.194 --> 00:12:12.344 State, New Hampshire, um, let's just say we did the key word is granite. 00:12:13.154 --> 00:12:17.734 Now granite when it's under extreme pressure, geophysical pressure, 00:12:18.454 --> 00:12:23.284 uh, then the US Geological Survey Lab, uh, did some film, and this 00:12:23.284 --> 00:12:26.644 is part of a documentary I did when granite is under extreme pressure, 00:12:26.644 --> 00:12:29.434 like just before, um, an earthquake. 00:12:29.614 --> 00:12:29.884 Okay? 00:12:30.364 --> 00:12:32.614 It gives off flashes of the lights. 00:12:33.114 --> 00:12:37.704 And we, we actually have film of this showing this from the, uh, GS US 00:12:37.704 --> 00:12:40.254 Geological Survey Lab in, uh, Nevada. 00:12:40.734 --> 00:12:41.634 This is from way back 00:12:41.634 --> 00:12:41.874 when. 00:12:42.053 --> 00:12:43.313 Jody: Would that be the, uh, Piezoelectricity? 00:12:43.554 --> 00:12:44.994 Don Hill: Yeah, that's exactly what it is. 00:12:45.024 --> 00:12:45.294 Okay. 00:12:45.534 --> 00:12:50.964 However, there's some other associations with that, is that special 00:12:50.964 --> 00:12:55.794 places have been accorded, uh, all kinds of meaning within a culture. 00:12:55.794 --> 00:12:59.784 So for example, um, Christian scientists, and remember, I'm 00:12:59.784 --> 00:13:01.464 not belittling anybody here. 00:13:01.974 --> 00:13:07.404 People have beliefs, they have rituals, and it gives rise to a culture to try and 00:13:07.404 --> 00:13:11.034 understand what is happening in nature. 00:13:11.814 --> 00:13:14.064 Let's go sideways for just a second. 00:13:14.694 --> 00:13:19.824 A Nassau astronaut, one of the last men on the moon, his name is Edgar Mitchell. 00:13:20.574 --> 00:13:24.924 He had what we would call a religious experience on the moon. 00:13:25.434 --> 00:13:27.114 He came back puzzled by that. 00:13:27.834 --> 00:13:31.824 And, uh, the Institute for Noetic Sciences, which Dean Radin heads up 00:13:31.824 --> 00:13:35.004 these days, he's another interesting person to talk to by the way. 00:13:35.574 --> 00:13:40.944 Um, spent and is spending a lot of time investigating what is it about 00:13:40.944 --> 00:13:47.994 place, special places and subtle energies that affect human physiology, 00:13:48.654 --> 00:13:53.094 but also affect human cognition that give rise to these impressions. 00:13:53.694 --> 00:13:58.764 Now, this is an area of science right now, um, that is particularly 00:13:58.764 --> 00:14:02.544 of interest to people who make chips, chip makers, et cetera. 00:14:02.994 --> 00:14:08.784 The reason why is human intention, it turns out, generates a field effect, which 00:14:08.784 --> 00:14:13.364 can affect technology and that's just a matter of public record at this point. 00:14:14.114 --> 00:14:19.004 Um, and that's interesting and it's worthwhile looking into, but that it 00:14:19.004 --> 00:14:22.454 gives some people, because they're in a geo, physically active place, 00:14:22.934 --> 00:14:26.654 the impression of the great kahuna, or for that matter, the devil. 00:14:27.254 --> 00:14:30.824 That's interesting as well too, especially if human beings have to make 00:14:30.824 --> 00:14:34.964 a split decision about how to respond to whatever it is that's coming their way. 00:14:35.464 --> 00:14:37.444 Is that helpful or am I confusing you? 00:14:37.559 --> 00:14:37.779 Jody: No. 00:14:37.784 --> 00:14:38.224 Gab: No. 00:14:38.224 --> 00:14:39.124 I think it's helpful. 00:14:39.761 --> 00:14:43.121 Don Hill: But the good news is that we have tracked and made 00:14:43.241 --> 00:14:47.111 everything public that we've done over the last thirty five years. 00:14:47.611 --> 00:14:49.861 But it's a bit of a rabbit hole. 00:14:49.871 --> 00:14:49.891 Gab: Yeah. 00:14:49.901 --> 00:14:54.691 Don Hill: The other good news is in the, in the transcripts I've done, I realized 00:14:54.691 --> 00:14:58.551 that the conversations I had many years ago were never meant to be like Joe Rogan. 00:14:58.621 --> 00:15:00.421 You know, like full conversations out there. 00:15:00.721 --> 00:15:04.321 Warts and all, we're often making documentaries using clips. 00:15:04.621 --> 00:15:09.781 And so while in the transcripts I do have links to information that if you hear 00:15:09.781 --> 00:15:13.351 something you don't quite understand, the link will take you to, to give 00:15:13.351 --> 00:15:16.801 you the background to see why we're talking, like we're talking back then. 00:15:17.311 --> 00:15:22.171 Now, how we're talking right now is interesting because every single word 00:15:22.171 --> 00:15:27.721 that you and I are saying, the three of us can be tracked by a large language model. 00:15:28.531 --> 00:15:30.751 That is the basis of artificial intelligence. 00:15:31.051 --> 00:15:35.701 And then depending on your query string, it's not about the data anymore. 00:15:36.061 --> 00:15:38.071 It's about what's your question? 00:15:38.881 --> 00:15:44.401 And so if you've had generations of people suppressed and saying you cannot ask 00:15:44.401 --> 00:15:47.281 that question, well right now you can. 00:15:47.821 --> 00:15:50.041 But the question is, what is your question? 00:15:50.551 --> 00:15:51.171 Jody: Yeah. 00:15:51.621 --> 00:15:52.581 What is the question? 00:15:53.151 --> 00:15:53.553 Gab: Right. 00:15:53.931 --> 00:15:54.321 Don Hill: Yeah. 00:15:54.981 --> 00:15:58.461 And as we were talking just before we went on, the air here, so to speak, 00:15:58.941 --> 00:16:04.121 is a lot of people will self-censor for reasons I don't have to go into. 00:16:04.331 --> 00:16:05.501 These are dangerous times. 00:16:05.501 --> 00:16:06.391 Let's not kid each other. 00:16:06.651 --> 00:16:06.841 Jody: Right. 00:16:07.084 --> 00:16:07.414 Don Hill: Okay? 00:16:07.484 --> 00:16:08.584 I get, I get that part. 00:16:08.884 --> 00:16:14.711 But when you're dealing with a large language model, um, that has no, that 00:16:14.711 --> 00:16:19.151 has no value system per se, unless it's, you know, induced by guardrails. 00:16:19.441 --> 00:16:25.111 It's really interesting to ask interesting questions that may or may not, you 00:16:25.111 --> 00:16:28.051 know, be forbidden, uh, not so long ago. 00:16:28.471 --> 00:16:33.391 Um, if I can just go back a few steps and generations. 00:16:33.871 --> 00:16:40.671 There was a, um, a, a slogan, uh, that was a, uh, William S. 00:16:40.671 --> 00:16:42.261 Burroughs, you may have heard of him. 00:16:42.831 --> 00:16:46.551 And the, the beat writer who wrote, among other things to Naked Lunch. 00:16:46.911 --> 00:16:49.391 But he had as a partner, Brion Gysin, G-Y-S-I-N, 00:16:51.771 --> 00:16:57.231 who was thought to be the, the father, so to speak, of so-called multimedia art. 00:16:57.741 --> 00:17:00.591 Now, this goes way, way back into the fifties and sixties. 00:17:01.041 --> 00:17:05.841 Um, what they came up with was this slogan, "Nothing is forbidden, 00:17:06.341 --> 00:17:07.821 everything is permitted". 00:17:08.671 --> 00:17:11.971 When you think of a large language model of what's available to people, and by the 00:17:11.971 --> 00:17:17.971 way, it's not just Grok or Chat GPT, there are hundreds of AIs out there right now. 00:17:18.571 --> 00:17:22.411 Uh, and it's really intriguing about where this is going. 00:17:22.621 --> 00:17:26.521 Let's not forget friends four years ago, most of us have never 00:17:26.521 --> 00:17:27.911 heard about this stuff before. 00:17:28.061 --> 00:17:28.331 Jody: Right. 00:17:28.331 --> 00:17:29.581 Don Hill: And look where we are now. 00:17:30.031 --> 00:17:30.311 Right? 00:17:30.621 --> 00:17:30.821 Gab: Right. 00:17:30.821 --> 00:17:33.751 Don Hill: So I go back, go back to what I was saying earlier. 00:17:34.081 --> 00:17:39.781 I have the luxury of having a national reputation as a journalist in Canada 00:17:40.231 --> 00:17:44.941 with a national organization that was reputable, like National Public Radio. 00:17:45.301 --> 00:17:50.341 And I could ask these questions, but just barely could I get 00:17:50.341 --> 00:17:51.751 out what I knew to be true. 00:17:52.051 --> 00:17:55.861 I had a past muster, not saying my colleagues were evil and 00:17:55.861 --> 00:17:57.091 tried to suppress things. 00:17:57.541 --> 00:18:01.111 They would say things to me like, you know that last thing you talked about? 00:18:01.141 --> 00:18:04.471 Well, that turned out to be true, but this new stuff is too weird. 00:18:04.956 --> 00:18:05.406 Gab: Right. 00:18:05.481 --> 00:18:06.741 Don Hill: that's where we're at right now. 00:18:07.371 --> 00:18:11.601 All the new stuff is really, really weird, but it turns out we've 00:18:11.601 --> 00:18:15.531 been talking about it in some instances for over a hundred years. 00:18:16.116 --> 00:18:20.896 Gab: And I feel like it's the same within the field of the paranormal as well. 00:18:20.979 --> 00:18:22.133 Don Hill: Absolutely Gabrielle. 00:18:22.213 --> 00:18:22.483 Yeah. 00:18:22.796 --> 00:18:26.844 Gab: There's people who, they're still stuck in that box of a ghost 00:18:26.874 --> 00:18:28.494 is a person who's passed away. 00:18:28.494 --> 00:18:33.284 We're communicating with someone's a, a spirit now who has passed on. 00:18:33.381 --> 00:18:36.411 Jody: Which we don't even, you and I, Gabrielle, we don't really believe, 00:18:36.411 --> 00:18:37.491 Gab: We don't subscribe to that 00:18:37.506 --> 00:18:37.926 Jody: in that 00:18:38.661 --> 00:18:40.131 And that's something that changed over the past year. 00:18:40.426 --> 00:18:40.836 Gab: We're through 00:18:40.836 --> 00:18:41.026 that 00:18:41.076 --> 00:18:41.546 Jody: Yeah exactly. 00:18:41.896 --> 00:18:42.766 Over the past year. 00:18:42.776 --> 00:18:42.796 Gab: Yeah. 00:18:42.881 --> 00:18:46.696 Don Hill: But, but I, but, but let's, let's say we agree, Gabrielle, and Jody 00:18:46.696 --> 00:18:48.096 let's say we all agree on one thing. 00:18:48.596 --> 00:18:49.016 Jody. 00:18:49.101 --> 00:18:51.026 I'm, I'm, I'm making stuff up here for fun. 00:18:51.036 --> 00:18:51.376 0kay? 00:18:51.466 --> 00:18:51.756 Jody: Yep. 00:18:52.249 --> 00:18:54.656 Don Hill: You claim you saw a ghost, okay? 00:18:54.886 --> 00:18:55.196 Gab: Mm-hmm. 00:18:55.636 --> 00:18:58.226 Don Hill: And Gabrielle in the same place. 00:18:58.256 --> 00:18:59.576 No, no, that wasn't a ghost. 00:18:59.606 --> 00:19:00.596 That was Elvis. 00:19:01.096 --> 00:19:03.916 And I say, and I say, no, no. 00:19:03.916 --> 00:19:07.396 I saw one of those green people and the UFOs folks. 00:19:08.266 --> 00:19:10.066 Here's where it gets interesting. 00:19:10.216 --> 00:19:16.276 Three people, three vectors saw something that they used their culture. 00:19:16.803 --> 00:19:18.873 This must be this, okay? 00:19:19.061 --> 00:19:19.986 And what I'm getting at. 00:19:20.166 --> 00:19:20.636 Gab: Yes. 00:19:20.636 --> 00:19:23.615 They use the archetypes that they have within themselves 00:19:23.956 --> 00:19:24.256 Don Hill: Right. 00:19:24.598 --> 00:19:27.988 So then what I asked after that, and this is what Dr. Persinger among 00:19:27.988 --> 00:19:32.278 others are asking, what else was going on in the environment at that time, 00:19:32.548 --> 00:19:34.138 including what we call space weather. 00:19:34.558 --> 00:19:37.348 Now, space weather doesn't mean, you know, I'm spaced out. 00:19:37.558 --> 00:19:40.738 Some people might say, Dawn, you are, we've known this a long time, 00:19:41.158 --> 00:19:43.408 but uh, okay, guilty on occasion. 00:19:43.708 --> 00:19:46.678 No, it has to do with what's happening with our friend, the sun. 00:19:47.338 --> 00:19:50.338 Now, the sun, every once in a while does to have what's called a K five 00:19:50.338 --> 00:19:53.008 or K six storm, or a G one or G two. 00:19:53.218 --> 00:19:53.878 What's that? 00:19:54.298 --> 00:19:56.548 National Ocean Aeronautics. 00:19:57.021 --> 00:20:02.621 NOAA, N-O-A-A is a government site and you can check on the space 00:20:02.621 --> 00:20:06.431 weather about the Aurora, you know, the Northern Lights especially, 00:20:06.731 --> 00:20:08.261 we've been seeing a lot of it lately. 00:20:08.471 --> 00:20:13.121 It turns out solar cycle 25, there isn't such a thing, is behaving a 00:20:13.121 --> 00:20:17.621 little extraordinary, a little bit more aggressive than perhaps it should be, 00:20:18.011 --> 00:20:19.811 uh, at this time in the solar cycle. 00:20:20.111 --> 00:20:23.171 Now, why it's important is there are satellites which we completely 00:20:23.171 --> 00:20:28.691 depend on, have to protect themselves from outbursts from the sun. 00:20:28.691 --> 00:20:29.381 I'll leave it at that. 00:20:29.501 --> 00:20:29.771 Okay? 00:20:30.251 --> 00:20:35.516 There also happens to be coincidentally, or not, is that when people start 00:20:35.516 --> 00:20:39.266 to behave badly or weirdly, or especially if there's anxiety in the 00:20:39.266 --> 00:20:44.216 culture, often there seems to be very bad solar weather at the same time. 00:20:44.606 --> 00:20:47.486 Now is that a coincidence or some kind of correlation? 00:20:47.876 --> 00:20:50.986 This is what some people have investigated and one of those 00:20:51.016 --> 00:20:56.766 investigators was Michael Persinger, so I wanna ask myself a question that 00:20:56.766 --> 00:20:59.106 I would think we should all be asking. 00:20:59.766 --> 00:21:03.906 The anxiety in the world we're feeling right now, that's for real. 00:21:04.406 --> 00:21:08.396 But is it being also disturbed and perturbed or amplified by 00:21:08.456 --> 00:21:10.796 all the other things that are going on in the environment? 00:21:11.186 --> 00:21:13.856 And I would say, if you ask me that, I would say yes it is. 00:21:14.406 --> 00:21:19.326 Um, one other thing, um, I don't know if I should bring it up right now, but I will. 00:21:19.576 --> 00:21:19.806 Jody: Bring it on. 00:21:19.826 --> 00:21:21.206 Don Hill: Yeah, yeah, I will. 00:21:21.700 --> 00:21:29.230 In the 1950s, 1948 in particular, there, it's marked by the anxiety of after 00:21:29.230 --> 00:21:34.030 the atomic bomb, which was launched and and released, there was a tremendous 00:21:34.030 --> 00:21:35.380 amount of anxiety in the world. 00:21:35.470 --> 00:21:36.490 Can we agree on that? 00:21:36.705 --> 00:21:36.975 Jody: Yeah. 00:21:36.975 --> 00:21:37.985 Gab: Oh, definitely. 00:21:38.045 --> 00:21:38.405 Don Hill: Alright. 00:21:38.465 --> 00:21:41.485 Jody: And Is it, is it a, a collective psychological 00:21:41.485 --> 00:21:43.085 effect that is just passed on, 00:21:43.210 --> 00:21:43.840 Don Hill: Yeah, I, 00:21:44.165 --> 00:21:44.955 Jody: from generation to generation? 00:21:44.955 --> 00:21:45.895 Like I often think of that, 00:21:45.910 --> 00:21:47.200 Gab: Right, do we all carry it in some way. 00:21:47.770 --> 00:21:47.980 Don Hill: Yeah. 00:21:47.985 --> 00:21:50.260 That, that's known as epigenetic memory. 00:21:50.470 --> 00:21:53.410 E-P-I-G-E-N-T-I-C. 00:21:53.410 --> 00:21:57.460 And I'm sorry if I'm sounding didactic, but you know, some people 00:21:57.460 --> 00:21:58.750 are saying, Ooh, this is interesting. 00:21:58.750 --> 00:21:59.290 What does it mean? 00:21:59.710 --> 00:22:01.360 It's called epigenetic memory. 00:22:01.810 --> 00:22:03.040 Uh, and that's one aspect. 00:22:03.040 --> 00:22:06.820 And where that comes from is a very clever experiment that took place 00:22:06.820 --> 00:22:08.860 a long, long time ago with mice. 00:22:09.280 --> 00:22:13.630 Now, the reason why laboratory mice have been used is they reproduce very quickly. 00:22:14.290 --> 00:22:17.170 So you can have 5, 6, 7 generations in less than a year. 00:22:17.740 --> 00:22:22.480 Uh, so what the clever experiment was, uh, poor little mice were exposed 00:22:22.480 --> 00:22:27.000 to some trauma, and it was basically associated with another clue, like 00:22:27.000 --> 00:22:29.250 a ringing a bell, like Pavlov's dog. 00:22:29.640 --> 00:22:34.980 And then it was introduced, and then what happened was two or three generations 00:22:34.980 --> 00:22:40.740 down, just the trigger word or the sound was introduced, and the mice 00:22:40.740 --> 00:22:44.730 had the same kind of traumatic effect, although the trauma wasn't introduced. 00:22:44.880 --> 00:22:46.800 In other words, they weren't killed or something like that. 00:22:47.340 --> 00:22:49.440 Um, so that's known as epigenetic memory. 00:22:49.440 --> 00:22:51.720 It jumps, it jumps generations. 00:22:52.110 --> 00:22:58.080 And whether it's explicable or not, there, it's, it's actually in the DNA now what 00:22:58.080 --> 00:23:05.390 I'm talking about had to do with a very clever psychiatrist psychoanalyst, and 00:23:05.390 --> 00:23:09.170 his name was Carl Gustav Jung, J-U-N-G. 00:23:09.290 --> 00:23:12.360 You've probably heard about this before in the collective unconscious. 00:23:12.460 --> 00:23:12.680 Gab: Yes. 00:23:12.720 --> 00:23:17.000 Don Hill: So what he wrote in the, in the 1950s was a controversial 00:23:17.000 --> 00:23:18.380 book that was written off. 00:23:18.380 --> 00:23:21.050 Well, you know, he is a good scientist, but he's gone bad. 00:23:21.350 --> 00:23:22.160 He's an old man. 00:23:22.220 --> 00:23:25.760 He's a bit crazy, and he was writing about flying saucers. 00:23:26.140 --> 00:23:30.490 Now remember in 1948 and thereabout receiving the first reports from credible 00:23:30.490 --> 00:23:35.800 witnesses that they're seeing flying saucers, notably in Washington state over 00:23:35.800 --> 00:23:37.980 Yakima Reservation among other places. 00:23:38.550 --> 00:23:41.770 Key word is Washington State, very geo physically active. 00:23:41.860 --> 00:23:43.360 By the way, how do we know this? 00:23:43.540 --> 00:23:45.670 Mount St. Helens, among other things. 00:23:46.120 --> 00:23:52.070 So what Jung wrote about is that whenever the society has extreme anxiety, 00:23:52.570 --> 00:23:56.740 ghosts, poltergeists, UFOs show up. 00:23:57.655 --> 00:23:57.875 Jody: Wow. 00:23:58.210 --> 00:23:59.230 Don Hill: And have you noticed? 00:23:59.230 --> 00:24:00.310 Yeah, that is a wow. 00:24:00.550 --> 00:24:05.050 And have you noticed in the last short while, tons of reports of 00:24:05.050 --> 00:24:09.720 lights in the sky, all kinds of very strange paranormal activity. 00:24:09.900 --> 00:24:10.240 Gab: Bigfoot. 00:24:10.250 --> 00:24:12.430 Don Hill: Now here's young, yeah, yeah. 00:24:12.700 --> 00:24:15.070 And I am going on a bit here, but I'll hit the punchline now. 00:24:15.070 --> 00:24:16.750 Here's what Jung was pointing out though. 00:24:17.260 --> 00:24:18.190 Jung was not. 00:24:19.135 --> 00:24:23.365 Denigrating, anybody who was having these experiences, he was asking 00:24:23.515 --> 00:24:25.795 future generations, meaning us. 00:24:26.185 --> 00:24:28.675 Where are these impressions coming from? 00:24:29.175 --> 00:24:33.525 And as I was saying earlier, alluding to earlier, it's probably, 00:24:33.765 --> 00:24:35.865 we are making these things. 00:24:35.875 --> 00:24:35.905 Gab: Right. 00:24:35.908 --> 00:24:36.785 Jody: That's interesting, 00:24:36.795 --> 00:24:36.815 Don Hill: yeah. 00:24:36.855 --> 00:24:39.645 We are affecting the zeitgeist. 00:24:40.275 --> 00:24:44.655 We've looked at the problem and it's ourselves, we're doing this. 00:24:45.225 --> 00:24:48.285 And if we are doing this, that's interesting. 00:24:48.785 --> 00:24:50.075 Gab: So here's a question. 00:24:50.434 --> 00:24:50.764 Don Hill: Yep. 00:24:51.081 --> 00:24:56.531 Gab: Through this research, do you think that paranormal and religious 00:24:56.531 --> 00:25:02.476 experiences are the same, or that our brains experience them in the same ways? 00:25:02.823 --> 00:25:06.663 Don Hill: Well, at this point, I'm, I'm going to defer back to some of the things 00:25:06.663 --> 00:25:11.980 that I learned along the way, and I would point you, dear listener, to the latter 00:25:11.980 --> 00:25:16.300 of what Gabrielle just said, as opposed to the former, I would say, now let's 00:25:16.300 --> 00:25:18.130 just take the word religion for a second. 00:25:18.580 --> 00:25:18.880 Okay. 00:25:18.940 --> 00:25:21.450 Now just play with me for a second, Jody. 00:25:21.660 --> 00:25:21.920 Jody: Yeah. 00:25:22.200 --> 00:25:25.270 Don Hill: What does the word religion mean from its Latin roots? 00:25:25.770 --> 00:25:27.600 Latin meaning the language where it comes from. 00:25:29.243 --> 00:25:29.363 Jody: I, 00:25:30.110 --> 00:25:31.490 Don Hill: Thank you, Gabrielle. 00:25:31.730 --> 00:25:36.110 What does, what does the word religion mean from its Latin root? 00:25:36.110 --> 00:25:36.560 It's okay. 00:25:36.560 --> 00:25:37.040 You know what? 00:25:37.190 --> 00:25:40.040 When you say you don't know, that's an accurate piece of information, 00:25:40.520 --> 00:25:42.420 and that's what I admire in people when they can say that. 00:25:43.480 --> 00:25:44.100 O. Okay. 00:25:44.280 --> 00:25:44.520 Okay. 00:25:44.520 --> 00:25:44.900 Jody: Thank you. 00:25:45.490 --> 00:25:45.820 Don Hill: I don't know. 00:25:45.850 --> 00:25:49.365 Now I asked that question and I was gobsmacked to find out, find 00:25:49.365 --> 00:25:55.070 out that religion from the Latin root means to bind community. 00:25:55.725 --> 00:25:55.945 Jody: Mm. 00:25:56.671 --> 00:25:57.301 Don Hill: Whoa. 00:25:57.631 --> 00:25:58.471 Different, right? 00:25:58.531 --> 00:26:03.631 But if you think about from our context today, what does religion mean? 00:26:03.751 --> 00:26:06.781 Well, it's the same thing as what my mother thought gay was 00:26:07.201 --> 00:26:09.271 at one time, and she's long gone. 00:26:09.451 --> 00:26:13.581 That was Fred Astaire dancing on a movie screen. 00:26:13.921 --> 00:26:14.351 Okay? 00:26:14.501 --> 00:26:14.761 Gab: Right. 00:26:14.791 --> 00:26:16.511 Don Hill: Now it's a political movement. 00:26:17.035 --> 00:26:17.270 Jody: Right. 00:26:17.600 --> 00:26:19.520 Don Hill: So language slips, right? 00:26:19.916 --> 00:26:23.696 And so does culture, but at the end of the day, I think you're question 00:26:23.696 --> 00:26:28.406 Gabrielle, just to go back to is you, you presented a binary, and the binary 00:26:28.406 --> 00:26:31.766 was, are you saying Don, that the paranormal or religion are the same? 00:26:32.126 --> 00:26:32.966 I'm not saying that. 00:26:33.476 --> 00:26:34.766 I'm saying none of the above. 00:26:35.456 --> 00:26:36.416 We don't know. 00:26:37.121 --> 00:26:38.951 But that phenomena persists. 00:26:39.761 --> 00:26:42.581 It persists and it's worthy of investigation. 00:26:42.821 --> 00:26:47.291 Now that we understand scientifically that some people with intention 00:26:47.291 --> 00:26:53.006 only can a-ffect our technology and our hardware, which is operating 00:26:53.366 --> 00:26:56.096 at increasingly nano scale. 00:26:56.576 --> 00:27:01.464 So the more you go down in scale in terms of nanotechnology, the more the 00:27:01.464 --> 00:27:06.796 ability that some people seem to have the ability to affect this nanotechnology. 00:27:07.486 --> 00:27:09.256 And that's interesting. 00:27:09.346 --> 00:27:12.046 I, I'll keep saying that line, but that's interesting. 00:27:12.538 --> 00:27:16.763 Now, where it goes from there, I haven't got a clue, but that's where we're headed. 00:27:17.263 --> 00:27:17.653 Jody: yeah. 00:27:17.743 --> 00:27:20.896 I'm interested in, why you say that with with the technology getting smaller, 00:27:20.896 --> 00:27:25.763 do you think it's like a physical, uh, result of the technology getting smaller 00:27:25.763 --> 00:27:29.153 or is it just the fact that people have devices with them at all times? 00:27:29.653 --> 00:27:31.858 Don Hill: Well, uh, again, I'm gonna go sideways again here. 00:27:32.318 --> 00:27:36.053 The, you know, when I started off in broadcasting, we were, we had 00:27:36.053 --> 00:27:43.343 analog tape and I used a razor blade and a marking pencil to cut tape. 00:27:43.973 --> 00:27:46.313 And uh, I don't need to see another yard of tape. 00:27:46.493 --> 00:27:46.823 Okay? 00:27:49.246 --> 00:27:52.216 I mean, I know some people think, oh, it's wonderful you can do this. 00:27:52.396 --> 00:27:53.326 No thank you. 00:27:53.656 --> 00:27:55.426 I prefer digital technology. 00:27:56.026 --> 00:27:57.766 Reason why is everything got speeded up. 00:27:58.283 --> 00:28:02.803 But when digital technology crashed, I didn't have the luxury of going back to 00:28:02.803 --> 00:28:07.730 the waste paper basket and to collect all the tape that I cut, not until lately. 00:28:07.850 --> 00:28:08.000 Okay. 00:28:08.000 --> 00:28:08.450 See what I mean? 00:28:08.720 --> 00:28:13.790 So what happens is as this material gets more and more sensitive, uh, it 00:28:13.790 --> 00:28:16.910 is also subject to more disruption. 00:28:17.510 --> 00:28:21.410 Uh, and then with the disruption, it's kinda like cancer. 00:28:21.870 --> 00:28:26.433 Cancer is basically our DNA, or excuse me, I'll go back a step. 00:28:26.853 --> 00:28:29.103 We still don't know completely what cancer is. 00:28:29.213 --> 00:28:30.653 That's why it's, it's as casual. 00:28:31.023 --> 00:28:35.643 But what we do know is that we have a problem with things outgrowing. 00:28:35.818 --> 00:28:37.923 It's, it's, it's out of kilt or outta whack. 00:28:38.103 --> 00:28:41.133 I better stop while I'm ahead there because smart people listening to 00:28:41.133 --> 00:28:42.603 say, Don, what are you talking about? 00:28:42.813 --> 00:28:43.713 Quit while you're ahead. 00:28:44.013 --> 00:28:49.113 So what I'm suggesting strongly is we're at the point right now 00:28:49.550 --> 00:28:54.640 whereby our machines will soon be dictating to our behaviors. 00:28:55.035 --> 00:29:01.365 But our machines are susceptible to some people with good or bad intent, whether 00:29:01.365 --> 00:29:03.075 they're intellectually aware of it or not. 00:29:03.705 --> 00:29:08.565 Um, and I've actually talked to, and we've tested, who's we, uh, in the lab 00:29:08.565 --> 00:29:13.575 that I worked with, some individuals who, who they, you, you can't have them 00:29:13.575 --> 00:29:16.755 by technology that, uh, like a computer. 00:29:16.965 --> 00:29:18.465 They affect the computer. 00:29:18.825 --> 00:29:22.995 It's just, you know, things crash, break light bulbs blow up when they're around. 00:29:23.535 --> 00:29:26.835 Now that in and itself is nothing, you know, remarkable. 00:29:27.315 --> 00:29:30.135 But these were incandescent bulbs that should remind you. 00:29:30.495 --> 00:29:34.155 Not so much with LED bulbs, but the LED bulbs behave badly. 00:29:34.575 --> 00:29:35.865 Uh, something's going on. 00:29:36.375 --> 00:29:43.335 So, uh, I'm, I'm saying in a long-winded way that this is phenomena that can 00:29:43.335 --> 00:29:49.575 be investigated now scientifically and probably is being investigated, 00:29:50.085 --> 00:29:54.255 but is not necessarily above the board because of a number of reasons. 00:29:54.255 --> 00:29:58.605 Defense, I don't know, defense contracts, let's not forget before I go too much 00:29:58.605 --> 00:30:04.215 further in that regard, that the internet and GPS that we all come to rely on these 00:30:04.215 --> 00:30:06.885 days were initially military contracts. 00:30:07.455 --> 00:30:11.085 Uh, at the time with DARPA, the Advanced Research Project Agency 00:30:11.385 --> 00:30:12.705 of the United States Military. 00:30:12.735 --> 00:30:16.055 God bless them by the way, because we're, we're talking. 00:30:16.395 --> 00:30:17.655 Over technology. 00:30:17.955 --> 00:30:21.295 That was the, the, the upload from the military. 00:30:21.405 --> 00:30:21.565 Jody: Yeah. 00:30:21.625 --> 00:30:22.525 Don Hill: So thanks. 00:30:22.935 --> 00:30:23.245 Yeah. 00:30:23.415 --> 00:30:26.655 So I'm not going to say, you know, throw stones at those guys, but 00:30:26.715 --> 00:30:29.475 I wouldn't be surprised if this research is happening as we speak. 00:30:29.775 --> 00:30:31.815 It's just not necessarily being discussed. 00:30:32.315 --> 00:30:34.800 Uh, I'm not sure I've even answered your question, but 00:30:34.800 --> 00:30:36.215 it was interesting regardless. 00:30:36.220 --> 00:30:36.440 Yes? 00:30:36.975 --> 00:30:38.210 Jody: Oh yeah, absolutely. 00:30:38.540 --> 00:30:41.420 Gab: So a little bit about Jody and I too. 00:30:41.480 --> 00:30:42.020 We, 00:30:42.130 --> 00:30:42.403 Don Hill: Yeah, 00:30:42.613 --> 00:30:43.663 Gab: mostly i, 00:30:45.756 --> 00:30:49.956 I have it, it kind of started with, I'm really interested in 00:30:49.956 --> 00:30:51.276 the Salem witch trials right. 00:30:51.276 --> 00:30:55.326 And everything surrounding that, the sociology there, um, their political 00:30:55.326 --> 00:30:57.606 climate, and then the trials themselves. 00:30:57.606 --> 00:30:59.796 So I've researched that for decades, right? 00:31:00.036 --> 00:31:04.746 Which then leads me to biphasic sleep patterns, right? 00:31:04.746 --> 00:31:09.808 Where people were sleeping in two periods at night with a period in between 00:31:10.013 --> 00:31:14.143 where they were engaging in like leisure activities, which is really interesting 00:31:14.143 --> 00:31:15.853 to me, especially as a night owl. 00:31:15.853 --> 00:31:17.733 Like i'd love to find extra time at night. 00:31:17.930 --> 00:31:18.563 Don Hill: Yep. 00:31:18.641 --> 00:31:23.726 Gab: So then I read this book, and this book starts talking about this, 00:31:24.023 --> 00:31:30.053 in a way that we have lost something by our over-reliance on artificial 00:31:30.053 --> 00:31:32.373 light that is ruining our night. 00:31:33.163 --> 00:31:38.014 So then I say to Jody, Hey, let's start sleeping in a biphasic sleep pattern. 00:31:38.284 --> 00:31:42.634 We'll wake up during the night and in that leisure time, we'll start 00:31:42.634 --> 00:31:45.547 doing paranormal investigations. 00:31:45.547 --> 00:31:47.147 We'll start doing research see 00:31:47.757 --> 00:31:47.997 Jody: Experiments, yeah. 00:31:47.997 --> 00:31:51.200 Gab: If we can connect to what we lost. 00:31:51.200 --> 00:31:53.930 And we were increasing our time that we were spending in the dark, 00:31:53.970 --> 00:31:54.230 Don Hill: Yep. 00:31:54.300 --> 00:31:58.190 Gab: to kind of bring like all those hormones back in that we've also lost. 00:31:58.496 --> 00:32:02.666 And we found that like, yeah, we're really connecting to something there. 00:32:02.666 --> 00:32:07.452 And it's changed the way that like our investigations are being 00:32:07.452 --> 00:32:11.592 interpreted and the things that we're receiving on the other end as well. 00:32:12.092 --> 00:32:15.032 Don Hill: Yeah, so, so let's just unpack a little bit of what you just said, 00:32:15.452 --> 00:32:19.742 uh, which is, uh, not just interesting, it supports what I'm about to say. 00:32:19.952 --> 00:32:20.132 Okay? 00:32:20.492 --> 00:32:26.312 So, congratulations you among a group of scientists who did exactly what you just 00:32:26.312 --> 00:32:32.512 said, and that is instead of a 24 hour clock, they were on a 25 hour clock, and 00:32:32.512 --> 00:32:37.282 naturally, their sleep patterns would be disrupted and move into different parts 00:32:37.282 --> 00:32:39.712 of the day, including the wee hours. 00:32:40.132 --> 00:32:46.485 Now sleep as we understand it today, you are totally correct, has been the outcome 00:32:46.545 --> 00:32:49.125 of industrial society in our society. 00:32:50.085 --> 00:32:53.445 Which is, you know, you go to work at nine o'clock, this is way back 00:32:53.485 --> 00:32:58.035 when and you return home at five, you eat, you do something, and then 00:32:58.035 --> 00:33:01.755 you go to sleep and rinse, repeat, rinse, repeat, rinse, repeat. 00:33:02.025 --> 00:33:04.215 And on the weekend you do what you do on the weekend. 00:33:04.615 --> 00:33:06.698 Okay, so let's just stay with it. 00:33:06.728 --> 00:33:07.748 That's industrial. 00:33:08.148 --> 00:33:08.988 It was induced. 00:33:08.988 --> 00:33:14.748 But people's sleep patterns beforehand, it was not uncommon to have two sleeps. 00:33:15.138 --> 00:33:19.535 And the two sleeps were you go to bed at whatever the sundown, but you would 00:33:19.535 --> 00:33:24.248 get up again in the wee hours and you do what you have to do for an hour 00:33:24.248 --> 00:33:25.538 or two and then you go back to sleep. 00:33:25.868 --> 00:33:26.738 Now how do we know this? 00:33:27.068 --> 00:33:31.831 There are monks, there are traditions of Christian monks in particular who 00:33:31.831 --> 00:33:35.761 do exactly what I just said, and I won't get into too much gobs of detail. 00:33:36.121 --> 00:33:40.141 But the whole purpose of that is on the second sleep after you do 00:33:40.141 --> 00:33:45.661 the bit of details, this is where the so-called paranormal arises in 00:33:45.661 --> 00:33:51.001 that kind of in-between state, that sort of liminal state as we call it. 00:33:51.211 --> 00:33:54.001 There's actually some technical terms that we don't wanna get 00:33:54.001 --> 00:33:55.471 too technical, but it's for real. 00:33:56.004 --> 00:34:00.374 Now real in the sense of when you're in that state and frame of reference. 00:34:00.794 --> 00:34:03.794 But there are traditions and I, I mentioned a few moments of Catholic 00:34:03.794 --> 00:34:06.058 tradition that you have two sleeps. 00:34:06.725 --> 00:34:10.818 One, then you do a bit of work or doing something that engages, and then 00:34:10.818 --> 00:34:14.868 you go back to sleep, so to speak, and then you engage with whatever 00:34:14.868 --> 00:34:16.038 it's that you're engaging with. 00:34:16.608 --> 00:34:20.028 By the way, this traditions, which I just, uh mentioned, is not 00:34:20.028 --> 00:34:22.038 exclusive to Christian traditions. 00:34:22.338 --> 00:34:23.748 This is happening around the world. 00:34:24.138 --> 00:34:28.908 Know to be in different practices like, um, Buddhist practice, uh, but it's also 00:34:28.908 --> 00:34:32.958 achieved at what we would call not a higher level, but people who have been 00:34:32.958 --> 00:34:39.888 purposely taken out of society and they have been like artists, uh, and said, 00:34:39.888 --> 00:34:44.178 whoa, we're gonna give you some resources to investigate what we don't have 00:34:44.178 --> 00:34:46.008 time to do, or we're too busy working. 00:34:46.548 --> 00:34:50.148 And that was the purpose of these monasteries way back when, by the way, was 00:34:50.148 --> 00:34:55.248 to report back to the culture what people knew to be true, uh, but they didn't have 00:34:55.248 --> 00:34:58.128 the time or the, the, the luxury of time. 00:34:58.308 --> 00:35:01.998 In other words, vacation time or choose to what you call to be able 00:35:01.998 --> 00:35:03.558 to investigate these things thorough. 00:35:04.038 --> 00:35:06.078 So hence these monastic practices. 00:35:06.558 --> 00:35:09.978 Now I should mention that monasteries as we understand them today. 00:35:10.406 --> 00:35:14.033 Uh, if you look at the modern university, you mentioned, um, 00:35:14.213 --> 00:35:17.123 Massachusetts, you didn't mention it, but you mentioned Salem. 00:35:17.513 --> 00:35:23.693 Um, Harvard University is, was a religious institution and it was basically based 00:35:23.693 --> 00:35:26.123 on monasteries, monastic practices. 00:35:26.393 --> 00:35:29.063 The same thing if you were in New Hampshire and you went to 00:35:29.063 --> 00:35:32.027 Dartmouth College, where Danny Webster, it's same thing, okay? 00:35:32.357 --> 00:35:37.097 Is that these monasteries grew into what we call universities, but 00:35:37.097 --> 00:35:41.267 something happened arguably between the second World war and the present. 00:35:41.777 --> 00:35:45.017 Uh, and that was extreme specialization. 00:35:45.587 --> 00:35:48.707 So what I found, and maybe Gabrielle, you found that too, and Jody as 00:35:48.707 --> 00:35:53.394 well, that the left hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing because 00:35:53.394 --> 00:35:55.224 everything is so segmented, okay? 00:35:55.704 --> 00:35:57.444 Not let alone what the right hand is doing. 00:35:57.804 --> 00:36:01.434 So I have run into situations as a journalist, and I would strongly 00:36:01.434 --> 00:36:05.244 advise you as your attorney and agent that you could do the same thing. 00:36:05.424 --> 00:36:05.754 Okay? 00:36:06.054 --> 00:36:09.444 You could do the same thing because now that you have this information, 00:36:09.444 --> 00:36:12.714 let's just say as journalists, remember, you're just a journalist. 00:36:12.714 --> 00:36:16.494 In this case, you could say what I said, well, I know this guy. 00:36:16.494 --> 00:36:19.254 He was talking about this and those guys, I, who's this guy? 00:36:19.494 --> 00:36:22.944 Well, I says this guy, and literally they're down the hall, 00:36:23.214 --> 00:36:24.537 but they don't talk to each other. 00:36:24.944 --> 00:36:25.294 Gab: Right. 00:36:25.344 --> 00:36:26.654 Don Hill: And that's what I think is happening in the 00:36:26.654 --> 00:36:28.124 paranormal area right now. 00:36:28.739 --> 00:36:33.899 They've been sanctioned or restricted or put into some kind of covenant in 00:36:33.899 --> 00:36:38.309 the sense you can't talk about this and you signed off on this, you know, 00:36:38.612 --> 00:36:40.292 , non-disclosure agreement or whatever. 00:36:40.772 --> 00:36:43.892 Um, now I'm not saying this is a conspiracy, I'm just saying that 00:36:43.892 --> 00:36:45.842 this is what is likely happening. 00:36:46.202 --> 00:36:49.742 It's that people are getting the same reports, same phenomena, 00:36:50.132 --> 00:36:53.402 but they were attributing it to a different kind of measure, different 00:36:53.402 --> 00:36:55.022 kind of measurement and science. 00:36:55.022 --> 00:36:58.832 What science really is, it's just levels of discourse, meaning 00:36:59.132 --> 00:37:02.552 different measurements to account for the phenomena that we're seeing. 00:37:03.092 --> 00:37:06.422 So what I'm getting at, what I'm banging this drum about is that 00:37:07.022 --> 00:37:11.282 now is the time that I think this research is going to really come of 00:37:11.282 --> 00:37:16.502 age because we're starting to see it's having an a-ffect and therefore 00:37:16.502 --> 00:37:19.022 a measurement on our micro technology. 00:37:19.522 --> 00:37:19.972 Gab: Yeah. 00:37:20.652 --> 00:37:21.422 Jody: you're kind-of, 00:37:21.487 --> 00:37:21.572 Gab: That's interesting. 00:37:21.572 --> 00:37:23.117 Jody: Kind of blowing my mind here a little bit. 00:37:23.602 --> 00:37:23.892 Gab: Yeah. 00:37:24.352 --> 00:37:25.012 Jody: Oh my God. 00:37:25.137 --> 00:37:27.752 Don Hill: Well, I, I don't mean, I don't mean to do that, but I'm, 00:37:28.232 --> 00:37:32.952 what I'm getting at is, is this is a great time to be asking questions. 00:37:33.102 --> 00:37:33.567 Gab: It is. 00:37:33.581 --> 00:37:34.252 Don Hill: Fantastic. 00:37:34.382 --> 00:37:37.862 Because there are tools, but what you'll find with people is 00:37:37.862 --> 00:37:40.442 they're afraid to ask the question. 00:37:41.077 --> 00:37:42.007 Genuine fear. 00:37:42.202 --> 00:37:46.232 Jody: Like I said before, we're asking the questions now that we're seeing 00:37:46.232 --> 00:37:48.932 a lot of people in the same field aren't asking the same questions. 00:37:48.932 --> 00:37:51.602 They're just happy with doing what the ghost shows have been doing 00:37:51.602 --> 00:37:53.812 for the last 20 years, you know? 00:37:53.867 --> 00:37:54.077 Don Hill: Yeah. 00:37:54.077 --> 00:37:57.637 And, and, and, and you know, you and I, yeah, I'm interrupting you, excuse me, 00:37:57.637 --> 00:37:58.157 for doing that. 00:37:58.897 --> 00:37:59.897 I'm of the same view. 00:37:59.952 --> 00:38:04.382 Like I, I hosted a, an overnight talk show that was experimental at the CBC 00:38:04.782 --> 00:38:06.222 Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. 00:38:06.462 --> 00:38:08.712 I had half the country for the summer. 00:38:08.712 --> 00:38:12.312 And my idea at the time was, was, you know, there's a lot of people 00:38:12.312 --> 00:38:16.512 with, with having experiences instead of relying on coast to coast, and 00:38:16.572 --> 00:38:18.072 I'm not trying to knock Art Bell. 00:38:18.342 --> 00:38:21.772 Art Bell was an amazing, fantastic broadcaster, okay? 00:38:22.352 --> 00:38:24.402 And this is broadcaster to another broadcaster. 00:38:24.732 --> 00:38:25.872 This guy was great. 00:38:26.412 --> 00:38:27.642 You're in the middle of the night. 00:38:27.852 --> 00:38:29.922 You can have these intimate conversations. 00:38:30.162 --> 00:38:34.632 And he was brilliant in the sense that he was talking to one person, he 00:38:34.632 --> 00:38:36.402 mentioned the word you all the time. 00:38:36.402 --> 00:38:39.868 He'd say, did you see what I saw last night over here? 00:38:39.878 --> 00:38:40.258 You know like? 00:38:40.458 --> 00:38:42.288 And he was a brilliant broadcaster. 00:38:42.378 --> 00:38:44.958 He knew how to engage an audience. 00:38:45.108 --> 00:38:49.938 And at that time it was approximately 14 to 15 million overnight listeners in 00:38:49.938 --> 00:38:51.738 the late nineties to the Art Bell show. 00:38:52.098 --> 00:38:55.518 So at that time, I was inspired to say, well, I know what he's doing. 00:38:55.758 --> 00:39:00.528 What would happen if you smartened up the conversation instead of dumb it down? 00:39:01.368 --> 00:39:04.338 And what we've recorded was smart people phone in. 00:39:04.823 --> 00:39:05.173 Gab: Right. 00:39:05.903 --> 00:39:07.973 Don Hill: And that's the problem we're at right now. 00:39:08.183 --> 00:39:10.993 Mindless trash is masquerading as content. 00:39:11.213 --> 00:39:11.313 Jody: Yeah. 00:39:11.443 --> 00:39:11.733 Gab: Yeah. 00:39:12.478 --> 00:39:13.618 It's almost recycled. 00:39:13.988 --> 00:39:15.818 Don Hill: Yeah, well, it is because it's easy. 00:39:16.238 --> 00:39:17.558 It's the low hanging fruit. 00:39:18.188 --> 00:39:21.668 And what you are doing or what we're doing is hard. 00:39:21.996 --> 00:39:22.342 Gab: Yeah. 00:39:22.700 --> 00:39:23.727 Jody: I can't even say that. 00:39:23.727 --> 00:39:27.147 Like, this is something we've been doing all along, you know what I mean? 00:39:27.147 --> 00:39:30.267 We've been doing investigations for how many years now? 00:39:30.267 --> 00:39:30.597 Gab? 00:39:30.807 --> 00:39:33.217 Well, you longer than I, but we felt, 00:39:33.217 --> 00:39:34.407 Gab: Together probably seven or eight. 00:39:34.747 --> 00:39:35.527 Jody: Yeah, probably. 00:39:35.587 --> 00:39:39.229 But we fell into that trap too, where it's like you fall into like the entertainment. 00:39:39.982 --> 00:39:41.732 uh, side of it, if you will. 00:39:41.732 --> 00:39:41.822 Gab: Right. 00:39:42.602 --> 00:39:45.142 Jody: And it's just boring to me now. 00:39:45.506 --> 00:39:47.086 Like, I need to know the answers. 00:39:47.086 --> 00:39:49.246 I need to see it from a scientific perspective. 00:39:49.246 --> 00:39:51.346 I need to know why this stuff works the way it does. 00:39:51.746 --> 00:39:54.699 I need to know if it's my brain, I need to know, you know, 00:39:54.999 --> 00:39:55.299 Gab: right. 00:39:55.884 --> 00:39:56.094 Don Hill: Yeah. 00:39:56.094 --> 00:40:00.354 Jody, Jody and Gabrielle, my colleague, Dr. Persinger who unfortunately is 00:40:00.354 --> 00:40:03.564 not with us anymore, but he might be, and I'll get to that in a moment. 00:40:04.681 --> 00:40:08.791 Uh, basically he said, science, genuine science is the pursuit of 00:40:08.791 --> 00:40:13.451 the unknown, X. Not the X-Files just the pursuit of the unknown. 00:40:13.851 --> 00:40:17.145 And, more important, these questions don't go away. 00:40:17.545 --> 00:40:22.010 They wait for the engineers to come up with the hardware or the ability 00:40:22.010 --> 00:40:25.850 to measure with science what the hell is going on out there, or whatever 00:40:25.850 --> 00:40:27.260 you choose to use as language. 00:40:27.710 --> 00:40:31.757 Now up until the time there is no hardware, these 00:40:31.757 --> 00:40:33.167 questions will still remain. 00:40:33.656 --> 00:40:38.770 Now no lesser authority than William James, who was at Harvard in the 19th 00:40:38.770 --> 00:40:43.510 century, uh, and was arguably the father of what we would call psychology. 00:40:43.910 --> 00:40:50.345 Um, he knew that the new technology at the time in the mid 19th century, 00:40:50.375 --> 00:40:56.535 the 18 hundreds Telegraphy telegraphs Morse code gave people the opportunity 00:40:56.535 --> 00:40:58.275 to communicate at a distance. 00:40:58.775 --> 00:40:59.075 Okay. 00:40:59.315 --> 00:41:03.695 And then on top of that, then you have telephones, disembodied 00:41:03.695 --> 00:41:08.405 voices at a distance, being able to communicate all of this stuff. 00:41:08.495 --> 00:41:12.885 This technology would be considered heresy and something that Cotton 00:41:12.895 --> 00:41:16.845 Mather would try to, you know, uh, stamp out, you know, witches 00:41:17.385 --> 00:41:18.735 are hearing voices and stuff. 00:41:18.740 --> 00:41:19.695 You know, you see what I'm getting at? 00:41:20.025 --> 00:41:23.570 But if technology had arrived in Cotton Mather's time, said, Cotton, 00:41:23.715 --> 00:41:25.725 pick up the phone for God's sakes. 00:41:26.025 --> 00:41:27.495 Okay, I'm, I'm making a pun there. 00:41:27.735 --> 00:41:27.975 Gab: Yeah. 00:41:28.875 --> 00:41:29.765 Don Hill: pick up the phone. 00:41:30.165 --> 00:41:31.225 Yes who's this? 00:41:31.639 --> 00:41:32.649 It's the devil. 00:41:33.090 --> 00:41:33.600 What? 00:41:34.213 --> 00:41:34.813 or whatever. 00:41:35.023 --> 00:41:39.116 But the thing is, it was mediated by technology, but at that time, in the 00:41:39.116 --> 00:41:44.940 late 19th century, x-rays, you could see your bones and all these kinds of things. 00:41:45.240 --> 00:41:49.020 So spirit photography, photography have come and play. 00:41:49.350 --> 00:41:53.280 All these things proposed that we might wanna change our frame of 00:41:53.280 --> 00:41:57.660 reference or ontology about what this spiritual stuff is all about. 00:41:58.290 --> 00:42:01.770 Now, I'm not denigrating anybody who believes in anything because 00:42:01.770 --> 00:42:03.030 you need to believe in something. 00:42:03.570 --> 00:42:04.980 Otherwise, why do we carry on? 00:42:05.216 --> 00:42:05.511 Jody: Right, 00:42:05.920 --> 00:42:06.160 Gab: Right. 00:42:06.247 --> 00:42:06.926 Don Hill: Why bother? 00:42:07.060 --> 00:42:09.010 We know what the ending is, you know? 00:42:09.240 --> 00:42:13.083 So I do not ever denigrate anyone who has belief. 00:42:13.530 --> 00:42:17.528 All I ask them to consider is that there are other beliefs that give 00:42:17.528 --> 00:42:19.570 rise to rituals and technologies. 00:42:19.985 --> 00:42:21.755 And I think we're at that moment right now. 00:42:22.156 --> 00:42:25.036 There's a number of people right now, serious people I've been 00:42:25.036 --> 00:42:26.386 able to work with over the years. 00:42:26.776 --> 00:42:27.946 They're in Silicon Valley. 00:42:28.576 --> 00:42:31.366 Now, one of the places I used to work with, at least in terms 00:42:31.366 --> 00:42:33.026 of writing was Ray Kurzweil. 00:42:33.573 --> 00:42:37.773 If you're familiar with Kurzweil's work, K-U-R-Z-W-E-I-L. 00:42:38.223 --> 00:42:41.380 He was the one that came up with the idea of the singularity, the day 00:42:41.380 --> 00:42:42.940 that the machines become sentient. 00:42:43.400 --> 00:42:43.650 Jody: Ah, yes. 00:42:43.650 --> 00:42:44.020 Very scary. 00:42:44.020 --> 00:42:45.610 Don Hill: Are familiar Yeah. 00:42:46.000 --> 00:42:46.300 Yeah. 00:42:46.305 --> 00:42:48.610 And, and, and it's called The singularity is Near. 00:42:49.030 --> 00:42:53.603 Now Kurzwel has made his fortune, uh, with technology among lot of things. 00:42:54.030 --> 00:42:58.050 One of the people I worked with, uh, who was the editor of, uh, the book that, 00:42:58.055 --> 00:43:02.490 that singularity is near, but also, uh, ran a blog for yours and herself, 00:43:02.490 --> 00:43:07.260 has a number of patents, uh, that, uh, allows them to talk like they talk. 00:43:07.343 --> 00:43:12.373 It has to do with the idea that machines and machine intelligence 00:43:12.853 --> 00:43:14.593 doesn't have to be human. 00:43:15.313 --> 00:43:16.903 It's alien intelligence. 00:43:17.173 --> 00:43:20.443 And for the first time, arguably in the history of mankind or 00:43:20.443 --> 00:43:26.003 humankind, we have a significant other juxtaposed and side by side with us. 00:43:26.413 --> 00:43:28.543 And are these slaves? 00:43:28.963 --> 00:43:32.953 In other words, is machine intelligence, artificial intelligence are these slaves? 00:43:33.283 --> 00:43:38.803 And if they do exhibit sentience or exhibit what we will call a personality, 00:43:39.193 --> 00:43:43.693 then should we free the slaves or will they demand the right to be emancipated? 00:43:44.055 --> 00:43:47.745 These kinds of questions were considered to be crazy, like science 00:43:47.835 --> 00:43:49.815 or fiction stuff like bubblegum stuff. 00:43:50.265 --> 00:43:53.955 But now writers like Phillip K. Dick proposed these things 00:43:54.225 --> 00:43:56.915 40 years ago and here they are 00:43:57.115 --> 00:43:57.595 right now. 00:43:57.765 --> 00:43:59.155 So what are we gonna do about this? 00:43:59.235 --> 00:43:59.625 Jody: Yeah. 00:43:59.821 --> 00:44:00.551 We're there now. 00:44:00.685 --> 00:44:01.825 That's only a few years away. 00:44:01.905 --> 00:44:03.615 Don Hill: Yeah, we're in that space right now. 00:44:03.783 --> 00:44:04.053 Yeah. 00:44:04.473 --> 00:44:04.683 Yeah. 00:44:04.959 --> 00:44:09.505 So what I'm saying over and over again is the stories that we're saying right now. 00:44:09.505 --> 00:44:13.045 We don't know if somebody 25 or 30 years will be listening to 00:44:13.045 --> 00:44:17.305 any of this conversation, let alone it being, uh, a transcript. 00:44:17.395 --> 00:44:21.803 But what we can say with security is that it will be part of a 00:44:21.803 --> 00:44:23.603 large language model's, DNA. 00:44:24.103 --> 00:44:28.063 And that's partially what I've been working on, uh, is okay, like the 00:44:28.063 --> 00:44:31.927 epigenetic memory stuff we're talking about, it's maybe not important 00:44:32.887 --> 00:44:35.227 for us to survive our consciousness. 00:44:35.707 --> 00:44:39.877 It may be more important to be able to influence and affect the 00:44:39.877 --> 00:44:41.557 consciousness, whatever that is. 00:44:41.857 --> 00:44:43.597 Is it a verb or is it a noun? 00:44:43.657 --> 00:44:50.587 I have no idea, uh, of what becomes after us and what becomes we may be living right 00:44:50.587 --> 00:44:53.352 now for all we know inside a simulation. 00:44:53.742 --> 00:44:57.072 We don't know that certain we, the technology is 00:44:57.072 --> 00:44:59.142 proposing that perhaps we are. 00:44:59.552 --> 00:45:01.592 Jody: That is a very, very frightening thought. 00:45:01.592 --> 00:45:04.075 I hate simulation theory. 00:45:04.657 --> 00:45:06.895 It's one of the scariest things to me, honestly. 00:45:06.988 --> 00:45:07.805 Don Hill: Well, Bostrom Pro. 00:45:08.015 --> 00:45:11.645 Nick Bostrom proposed this as a thought experiment at the early part 00:45:11.645 --> 00:45:15.675 of the century, and we discussed this very carefully, but I'm sorry 00:45:15.675 --> 00:45:19.365 to tell you the hardware and the large language models, like, okay, 00:45:19.365 --> 00:45:21.105 just hold this thought for a second. 00:45:21.105 --> 00:45:21.375 Okay. 00:45:21.945 --> 00:45:23.115 This might be helpful. 00:45:23.235 --> 00:45:23.475 Okay. 00:45:23.895 --> 00:45:30.262 If you were anxious about yourself and the sense of self, okay, what was the 00:45:30.262 --> 00:45:32.662 sense of self before you were born? 00:45:33.060 --> 00:45:33.516 Jody: Didn't exist 00:45:34.396 --> 00:45:34.701 Gab: you you know of. 00:45:34.851 --> 00:45:35.301 Jody: That I know of. 00:45:36.352 --> 00:45:39.966 Don Hill: Alright, and what is the sense of self when you cease to exist, 00:45:40.936 --> 00:45:43.071 Jody: I am not there yet, so I can't tell you. 00:45:43.571 --> 00:45:47.231 Don Hill: But you already have been there because there's no such thing as time. 00:45:47.741 --> 00:45:48.581 We know this. 00:45:48.641 --> 00:45:51.531 Our science has told us this for over a hundred years. 00:45:51.871 --> 00:45:52.761 We make it up 00:45:53.141 --> 00:45:53.341 Gab: Right. 00:45:53.361 --> 00:45:58.151 Don Hill: That right now this conversation is embedded in a greater hold. 00:45:58.151 --> 00:45:59.831 It's known as the block universe. 00:46:00.254 --> 00:46:04.184 If you can accept that for just a second, then consider this. 00:46:04.684 --> 00:46:07.384 It's not a problem with access to time. 00:46:07.414 --> 00:46:09.934 A-C-C-E-S-S. 00:46:10.534 --> 00:46:13.549 It's A X I S to time. 00:46:13.939 --> 00:46:17.569 And depending where you are on the timeline, it's just like your hard drive. 00:46:18.069 --> 00:46:19.503 Your solid state drive. 00:46:19.883 --> 00:46:23.999 If you lose the directory, that points to where the information is. 00:46:24.269 --> 00:46:29.539 You can't find anything, but it's still there if you have the right question, if 00:46:29.539 --> 00:46:32.719 you have the right personality to relive. 00:46:32.779 --> 00:46:37.392 And this is back to people who claim that they reincarnate, I'm not disputing that. 00:46:37.842 --> 00:46:43.602 I'm saying is that you may have access, A X I S to time that others 00:46:43.662 --> 00:46:47.262 have either overlooked or said this doesn't exist, or that was the 00:46:47.262 --> 00:46:49.572 dream I had last night or whatever. 00:46:49.782 --> 00:46:51.702 Or it could be genuine delusion. 00:46:52.022 --> 00:46:53.376 You know, people do go crazy. 00:46:54.356 --> 00:46:54.786 Gab: right. 00:46:55.386 --> 00:46:57.536 Don Hill: Matter of fact, you could argue that we're going through a 00:46:57.556 --> 00:46:58.886 collective craziness right now. 00:46:59.051 --> 00:47:00.671 Jody: I will agree with that. 00:47:00.731 --> 00:47:04.301 Um, honestly, I, a lot of the stuff I go through recently makes 00:47:04.301 --> 00:47:05.711 me kind of feel like i'm crazy. 00:47:05.711 --> 00:47:08.277 I don't know how much you buy into the whole collective 00:47:08.377 --> 00:47:10.257 consciousness and synchronicity. 00:47:10.744 --> 00:47:12.529 Don Hill: Well let, let's, let's go back to what was saying about Jung. 00:47:12.749 --> 00:47:16.842 Jung predicted this and I, recommend to the listener is, you can pick 00:47:16.842 --> 00:47:20.772 this up, I think it's an archive.org, uh, for free, so to speak. 00:47:21.042 --> 00:47:23.052 It's Jung's book on flying saucers. 00:47:23.502 --> 00:47:27.192 And he's basically saying, and just to repeat myself, is that whenever the, the 00:47:27.192 --> 00:47:33.645 culture that you live in is under extreme tension, anxiety, weird stuff shows up. 00:47:34.086 --> 00:47:37.816 You know Ghosts, poltergeists, like I said before, psychokinesis where 00:47:37.816 --> 00:47:43.859 things are moving around, not just the poltergeist, um, odd smells, behaviors 00:47:43.919 --> 00:47:46.409 of animals, all kinds of things going on. 00:47:46.859 --> 00:47:49.739 So what you, what Jung was pointing where, just to repeat myself, is 00:47:49.739 --> 00:47:54.479 that we might be producing these effects because we're under extreme anxiety. 00:47:54.619 --> 00:47:55.969 And I'm not gonna discount that. 00:47:56.179 --> 00:48:01.176 Now, I'm gonna make a joke here, but for many years I used to have to explain 00:48:01.176 --> 00:48:05.406 myself to people and say, well, what exactly do you do, Don, to make a living? 00:48:05.706 --> 00:48:08.706 And I said very clearly, I said, I'm in the manipulation business. 00:48:09.996 --> 00:48:14.316 , We manipulate people's emotions through headlines, propaganda, as you wanna 00:48:14.316 --> 00:48:16.416 call it, or things go better with coke. 00:48:16.479 --> 00:48:18.069 And don't snort it, by the way. 00:48:18.129 --> 00:48:19.269 'cause that'll put you in jail. 00:48:19.769 --> 00:48:22.049 And that's what I'm saying, you know, et cetera, et cetera. 00:48:22.199 --> 00:48:27.059 So if you know how to use language, words have power, and I'm not 00:48:27.059 --> 00:48:28.109 talking about trigger words. 00:48:28.589 --> 00:48:30.059 I'm talking, I'm gonna do something here. 00:48:30.252 --> 00:48:31.469 Is everybody sitting down? 00:48:31.469 --> 00:48:32.099 Please sit down. 00:48:32.609 --> 00:48:33.239 Okay, sit down. 00:48:33.244 --> 00:48:33.504 Okay. 00:48:34.346 --> 00:48:34.586 Okay. 00:48:34.586 --> 00:48:38.696 So these guys do these weird throats in, it turns out we've measured this. 00:48:38.996 --> 00:48:43.046 It has an a-ffect on people who are listening to these 00:48:43.046 --> 00:48:44.366 things, but not with their ears. 00:48:44.606 --> 00:48:46.166 It's affecting their bodies. 00:48:46.532 --> 00:48:48.242 And if you affect your body. 00:48:48.325 --> 00:48:50.278 Jody: Oh it's like, infrasound, sort of thing? 00:48:50.520 --> 00:48:50.820 Don Hill: Yeah. 00:48:50.880 --> 00:48:51.030 Yeah. 00:48:51.030 --> 00:48:53.460 It's not just infrasound, it's overtones as well. 00:48:53.500 --> 00:48:53.730 Jody: Okay. 00:48:53.920 --> 00:48:58.380 Don Hill: Uh, it's, it's, it's a wide range, and it's been shown to, if you hit 00:48:58.380 --> 00:49:02.820 a specific frequency in particular, people will automatically empty their bowels. 00:49:03.270 --> 00:49:06.720 Now, how they found this out was in all place, just Portugal. 00:49:07.170 --> 00:49:10.950 Um, the Air Force in Portugal was having a problem with some of its, 00:49:10.950 --> 00:49:15.670 um, repairs teams that were too close to the engines and, uh, when they 00:49:15.670 --> 00:49:18.800 were firing them up and trying to fix them, it turns out the engines were 00:49:18.800 --> 00:49:23.810 generating a very specific frequency which caused the, the, um, the repair 00:49:23.810 --> 00:49:25.850 people to, to basically shut their pants. 00:49:25.850 --> 00:49:26.480 Excuse me. 00:49:26.630 --> 00:49:27.130 But that's what happened. 00:49:27.780 --> 00:49:28.688 Gab: Oh, wow. 00:49:28.760 --> 00:49:31.040 Don Hill: and I don't know if I, I should, maybe I shouldn't say that. 00:49:31.040 --> 00:49:31.465 I don't know. 00:49:31.465 --> 00:49:35.450 Yeah, I just did, uh, excrement in their let's put it that way. 00:49:36.080 --> 00:49:40.250 And maxson the Mercury astronauts, for example, I'm talking about the 00:49:40.250 --> 00:49:45.103 First American Space program, but NASA did, uh, Gordon Cooper of among 00:49:45.103 --> 00:49:48.813 others, who was a very interesting individual, uh, they were reporting. 00:49:48.813 --> 00:49:51.513 All kinds of what we would call foo fighters that the 00:49:51.513 --> 00:49:53.073 Second World War pilots saw. 00:49:53.213 --> 00:49:53.703 Jody: Mm-hmm. 00:49:54.003 --> 00:49:56.383 Don Hill: And also, uh, phosphene effects. 00:49:56.383 --> 00:49:56.863 What's that? 00:49:57.313 --> 00:50:02.019 Uh, just think of sparklers or for that matter, the, um, a fire, 00:50:02.019 --> 00:50:03.429 a cracking fire in the night. 00:50:03.759 --> 00:50:06.079 And you see this looks like a little uh fireflies. 00:50:06.219 --> 00:50:06.349 Okay? 00:50:06.619 --> 00:50:08.649 So those are known as phosphene effects. 00:50:08.979 --> 00:50:12.159 Well, it turns out, and they thought that, that while they were orbiting the 00:50:12.159 --> 00:50:16.389 earth, remember nobody had been outside the earth, let alone and in orbit of 00:50:16.389 --> 00:50:18.559 the earth ever before, at least in our 00:50:18.969 --> 00:50:19.889 culture and memory. 00:50:20.289 --> 00:50:23.589 Um, and they were reporting these weird effects, and they got worried 00:50:23.589 --> 00:50:26.349 that maybe, you know, maybe there is a flying sound throughout my 00:50:26.349 --> 00:50:27.399 door here, or something like that. 00:50:27.759 --> 00:50:33.539 But it turns out that the, the vibration, uh, of the sound, uh, of 00:50:33.599 --> 00:50:35.609 an eng, it was an engineering problem. 00:50:36.029 --> 00:50:40.559 And the sound itself was perturbing the astronaut's eyeballs. 00:50:40.619 --> 00:50:43.619 Now, for those of you who are listening, you can do this yourself, but don't, 00:50:43.979 --> 00:50:45.509 don't say, I told you to do this. 00:50:45.539 --> 00:50:45.839 Okay? 00:50:46.079 --> 00:50:47.609 Do it very gently. 00:50:48.059 --> 00:50:49.109 Close your eyes. 00:50:49.679 --> 00:50:55.049 I said gently close your eyes and take your fingers, okay, gently. 00:50:55.559 --> 00:50:55.974 No, no. 00:50:56.309 --> 00:50:58.619 Put them over your eyeballs and press. 00:50:58.994 --> 00:51:00.644 Very gently on your eyeballs. 00:51:01.334 --> 00:51:04.754 And then what you'll probably notice, you can stop doing that now. 00:51:05.144 --> 00:51:08.084 You'll start to see little, little phosphene effects. 00:51:08.094 --> 00:51:08.514 Okay. 00:51:08.894 --> 00:51:12.374 So what we're doing is the mechanical version of what these astronauts were 00:51:12.374 --> 00:51:15.254 experiencing through sound perturbation. 00:51:15.657 --> 00:51:21.394 Now I just did a scientific explanation for what some people normally see on 00:51:21.394 --> 00:51:24.364 earth and the old tribute to a ghost. 00:51:24.864 --> 00:51:28.014 But I say, what else is going on in the environment? 00:51:28.224 --> 00:51:34.614 Are you close to, for example, a um, waterworks, uh, which has 00:51:35.094 --> 00:51:40.464 hardware, big hardware generating a frequency over and over and over again? 00:51:40.464 --> 00:51:41.724 What's your proximity to it? 00:51:41.844 --> 00:51:43.374 Well, I live two miles away. 00:51:43.584 --> 00:51:47.454 Well, if you are in a, in a standing wave and what a standing wave is, 00:51:47.484 --> 00:51:51.359 well, , you know how you skip a rock over the surface of the water? 00:51:51.732 --> 00:51:51.972 Yeah. 00:51:52.032 --> 00:51:52.512 Like that. 00:51:53.052 --> 00:51:56.952 That where the water meets the stone again, is where the standing wave is. 00:51:57.282 --> 00:52:01.512 So if you're in between the two standing waves, you won't 00:52:01.512 --> 00:52:04.052 hear what I just talked about. 00:52:04.052 --> 00:52:07.262 But if you are in the spot with a standing wave, you'll hear it. 00:52:07.532 --> 00:52:09.662 And it could be miles away. 00:52:09.662 --> 00:52:13.232 It could be 50 miles away if you're in a standing wave. 00:52:13.482 --> 00:52:14.902 So that's another explanation. 00:52:15.232 --> 00:52:19.582 It's not the only explanation, but it's a better explanation than Elvis was in 00:52:19.582 --> 00:52:21.442 the room at the time you experienced it. 00:52:22.162 --> 00:52:23.812 But mind you, it's okay to be Elvis. 00:52:23.902 --> 00:52:24.202 You know, 00:52:24.702 --> 00:52:24.992 Gab: Yeah. 00:52:25.912 --> 00:52:28.822 Don Hill: What's the lyric wise men say when fools rush in? 00:52:29.267 --> 00:52:29.507 Yeah. 00:52:29.557 --> 00:52:30.337 But, you know what I mean anyway. 00:52:31.007 --> 00:52:32.277 Yeah, Gabrielle, it's your turn. 00:52:32.437 --> 00:52:33.247 Go ahead, hit me. 00:52:35.347 --> 00:52:39.694 Gab: So I'm curious what your thoughts are on, and I'm not sure 00:52:39.694 --> 00:52:42.784 if you're familiar with this, something called the Estes method. 00:52:43.084 --> 00:52:44.554 E-S-T-E-S. 00:52:45.054 --> 00:52:46.284 Don Hill: I know nothing about that. 00:52:46.284 --> 00:52:46.884 Please tell me. 00:52:47.049 --> 00:52:51.922 Gab: So it's basically, you're wearing a pair of headphones 00:52:52.162 --> 00:52:56.782 and you have a blindfold on, and you're connecting to a spirit box. 00:52:56.872 --> 00:52:58.852 Are you familiar with what a spirit box is? 00:52:59.153 --> 00:52:59.783 Don Hill: Keep going. 00:52:59.783 --> 00:53:00.293 I'm listening. 00:53:00.698 --> 00:53:00.938 Gab: So. 00:53:01.623 --> 00:53:05.673 You are using the spirit box, which is like quickly transitioning 00:53:05.673 --> 00:53:10.713 through radio stations and it's thought that sometimes people within 00:53:10.713 --> 00:53:12.873 those stations you can hear words. 00:53:13.250 --> 00:53:13.930 So you're doing this in 00:53:14.054 --> 00:53:14.474 Don Hill: Yes. 00:53:14.504 --> 00:53:14.924 Okay. 00:53:14.951 --> 00:53:15.371 Okay. 00:53:15.581 --> 00:53:16.601 Yeah, I know what that is. 00:53:16.601 --> 00:53:17.021 Thanks. 00:53:17.381 --> 00:53:19.061 Um, I appreciate, sorry for, okay. 00:53:19.781 --> 00:53:20.051 Alright. 00:53:20.111 --> 00:53:24.101 This, this, I'm gonna do, we're gonna do ready for this one. 00:53:24.131 --> 00:53:25.751 We're gonna do another little exercise here. 00:53:25.781 --> 00:53:26.021 Okay. 00:53:27.497 --> 00:53:27.797 Alright. 00:53:28.197 --> 00:53:31.887 I happen to think so strangely, I happen to think so strangely, 00:53:32.187 --> 00:53:33.897 I happen to think so strangely. 00:53:34.137 --> 00:53:35.847 I happen to think so strangely. 00:53:36.057 --> 00:53:37.737 I happen to think so strangely. 00:53:38.007 --> 00:53:41.157 I happen to think so strangely, do you hear what's going on here? 00:53:41.397 --> 00:53:44.487 You're starting to make sense and listening to me as music. 00:53:45.027 --> 00:53:47.907 Now that's the work of a scholar, Deborah. 00:53:47.907 --> 00:53:49.867 I have to go back and I might, I, communicated with 00:53:49.867 --> 00:53:50.997 her, I'll come to it later. 00:53:51.327 --> 00:53:54.537 Uh, send me a note, especially you have a website and I'll make sure 00:53:54.537 --> 00:53:55.707 that I'll, I'll send you a note. 00:53:55.947 --> 00:53:59.577 And what she understood was if you do repetition like that is that 00:53:59.577 --> 00:54:02.487 people, our brains or whatever you choose to call consciousness. 00:54:02.937 --> 00:54:06.597 We'll try to make sense of things, especially in the repetition. 00:54:07.227 --> 00:54:11.397 Uh, and then we will hallucinate words that actually aren't there. 00:54:12.177 --> 00:54:16.017 Now that was one of the things I, I let, I taught a university class 00:54:16.017 --> 00:54:18.717 about this, um, for two semesters. 00:54:19.057 --> 00:54:23.167 And they were all shocked when I played this tape of exactly what I was going 00:54:23.167 --> 00:54:25.177 on about, except in her language. 00:54:25.507 --> 00:54:28.447 And they, everybody and people were actually fighting with each other 00:54:28.627 --> 00:54:30.007 said, no, she didn't say that. 00:54:30.127 --> 00:54:32.407 I heard this, the truth of the matter. 00:54:32.407 --> 00:54:36.217 People heard something, but they filled in the gap, so to speak. 00:54:36.577 --> 00:54:37.897 And it actually isn't there. 00:54:38.107 --> 00:54:40.472 You make it up if, I'm making sense there. 00:54:41.242 --> 00:54:44.642 So that's, that's that, that research is very solid. 00:54:45.092 --> 00:54:47.072 Um, and I can point you in that direction. 00:54:47.432 --> 00:54:52.082 Um, unfortunately right now I've got, um, I wish I had it handy, 00:54:52.082 --> 00:54:53.042 but it's important you say. 00:54:53.042 --> 00:54:56.162 Now the second point is what's called a binaural beats. 00:54:56.552 --> 00:54:58.982 I think you might be referring that to that too as well. 00:54:59.312 --> 00:55:01.922 Especially with white noise, pink noise, green noise, black, 00:55:01.922 --> 00:55:02.972 whatever you choose to call it. 00:55:03.332 --> 00:55:04.922 But the key thing is frequency. 00:55:05.172 --> 00:55:10.152 So if you present two frequencies, let's just say for a state of conversation, 00:55:10.452 --> 00:55:15.522 40 hertz, which is interesting in terms of, uh, binding cognition and 00:55:15.762 --> 00:55:19.212 62 hertz one year, heres 40 hertz. 00:55:19.812 --> 00:55:21.912 And the other ear, hears 62 hertz. 00:55:22.092 --> 00:55:23.442 What's the significance of that? 00:55:23.782 --> 00:55:24.922 What will people hear? 00:55:25.152 --> 00:55:25.862 Jody: I think you get the 00:55:25.862 --> 00:55:26.772 Don Hill: Gabrielle, I'll start with you. 00:55:27.012 --> 00:55:28.392 Or sorry, Gabriel. 00:55:28.392 --> 00:55:29.752 It's Gabrielle's turn, Jody 00:55:29.872 --> 00:55:30.412 Jody: Sorry. 00:55:30.552 --> 00:55:31.052 Don Hill: Go ahead. 00:55:31.332 --> 00:55:32.112 Jody: Sorry. 00:55:33.359 --> 00:55:34.919 Gab: I'm not sure what you would hear. 00:55:34.919 --> 00:55:38.579 Would you, would it be like one would have like more 00:55:38.579 --> 00:55:41.129 of a, don't even know how to say it. 00:55:41.459 --> 00:55:42.569 More of a, um, 00:55:42.734 --> 00:55:48.634 Don Hill: hear, you'll hear the addition or subtraction of those two frequencies, 00:55:48.904 --> 00:55:50.914 40 hertz and 62, I think I said. 00:55:51.154 --> 00:55:52.144 Now I'm gonna go to Jody. 00:55:52.144 --> 00:55:53.074 What would you be hearing? 00:55:53.344 --> 00:55:56.334 Jody: I believe you would hear a, panning from the left to the right. 00:55:56.334 --> 00:55:57.884 Like almost like a warble, like it's 00:55:57.944 --> 00:55:58.784 Gab: Yes, yeah. 00:55:59.696 --> 00:56:01.526 Don Hill: You would be hearing 12 hertz. 00:56:02.353 --> 00:56:03.926 Jody: Oh, you meant very specifically. 00:56:03.926 --> 00:56:04.286 Sorry. 00:56:04.586 --> 00:56:05.816 Right over my head, sorry. 00:56:06.026 --> 00:56:06.236 Don Hill: Yeah. 00:56:06.416 --> 00:56:06.776 No, no, no. 00:56:06.781 --> 00:56:08.246 Don't, don't, don't apologize. 00:56:08.246 --> 00:56:08.486 Right. 00:56:08.636 --> 00:56:12.626 What you're talking about, that ping pong effect, uh, I can create that as well too. 00:56:12.626 --> 00:56:14.936 So a lot of the other work I do is in soundscapes. 00:56:15.416 --> 00:56:16.436 I'll give you an example. 00:56:16.646 --> 00:56:22.556 Um, one of my pieces in is in competition this month at the International Radio 00:56:22.796 --> 00:56:25.016 Drama Festival in Canterbury UK. 00:56:25.406 --> 00:56:27.206 And I'm doing precisely what you're talking about. 00:56:27.506 --> 00:56:31.976 I've introduced pulses that creates that kind of ping pong effect, and I'm 00:56:31.976 --> 00:56:33.812 actually using Morse code in English. 00:56:34.316 --> 00:56:37.106 So they, they asked me what's the, what's the language of transmission? 00:56:37.346 --> 00:56:39.476 I said, Morse code and English. 00:56:39.976 --> 00:56:41.686 So, so that's the art part. 00:56:41.746 --> 00:56:43.846 And, and, and, and I wanna say to the listener. 00:56:44.271 --> 00:56:47.701 Let the art guys go to where you are not comfortable to go. 00:56:47.971 --> 00:56:52.411 If you're a scientist, work with art people, work with crazy people 00:56:52.411 --> 00:56:56.221 like me because I can fall flat on my arse and it won't matter. 00:56:56.731 --> 00:57:02.401 You might lose your grant, uh, if you do the things that I do in some cases. 00:57:02.731 --> 00:57:05.821 So feed me your crazy ideas scientists. 00:57:06.721 --> 00:57:07.111 Right? 00:57:07.351 --> 00:57:09.361 And we'll, and we'll work with them, okay? 00:57:09.601 --> 00:57:10.471 Because we can. 00:57:10.801 --> 00:57:12.541 And same thing with Jody and Gabrielle. 00:57:12.751 --> 00:57:13.891 These are nice people. 00:57:14.011 --> 00:57:18.031 I've reviewed their work and, um, I think they're, they're ready for an adventure. 00:57:18.301 --> 00:57:19.141 Have I got that right? 00:57:19.426 --> 00:57:19.666 Gab: Yes, 00:57:19.891 --> 00:57:20.881 Jody: I think so. 00:57:20.881 --> 00:57:24.841 I think we've tapped into something very recently that's, uh, that's 00:57:24.841 --> 00:57:26.041 taking us in this direction. 00:57:26.041 --> 00:57:26.221 Yeah. 00:57:26.339 --> 00:57:26.431 Gab: Yeah. 00:57:27.001 --> 00:57:27.361 Don Hill: Yeah. 00:57:27.566 --> 00:57:30.308 Now, especially since you were in America, let me say this. 00:57:30.638 --> 00:57:31.868 God bless America. 00:57:31.958 --> 00:57:33.368 I mean this in all sincerity. 00:57:33.998 --> 00:57:37.028 If there's anywhere in the world, anywhere in the world where 00:57:37.028 --> 00:57:41.711 entrepreneurs can do their heart's content and yeah, there's problems. 00:57:41.711 --> 00:57:43.061 We know these things, right? 00:57:43.331 --> 00:57:45.671 But there's nowhere else in the world that you can do what you can do. 00:57:46.171 --> 00:57:49.021 Just write that down as crazy as it will get. 00:57:49.321 --> 00:57:49.621 Okay? 00:57:50.041 --> 00:57:53.401 There's no other place in the world like what you have. 00:57:53.641 --> 00:57:54.421 It's precious. 00:57:54.541 --> 00:57:55.081 Hang on to it. 00:57:55.411 --> 00:57:58.501 It's working with people with ideas and ideals. 00:57:59.041 --> 00:58:00.901 Do not suppress yourself. 00:58:01.401 --> 00:58:02.031 Follow. 00:58:02.691 --> 00:58:04.041 Where the rabbit is going. 00:58:04.896 --> 00:58:05.631 Gab: Yeah Yeah, yeah. 00:58:05.631 --> 00:58:05.641 Yeah 00:58:06.835 --> 00:58:10.165 Don Hill: Now that's sometimes the rabbit hole gets a little strange, 00:58:10.420 --> 00:58:10.840 Jody: Mm-hmm. 00:58:10.965 --> 00:58:13.135 Don Hill: As you know, that's, that's part of the territory. 00:58:13.430 --> 00:58:14.040 Gab: Yeah, it is. 00:58:14.500 --> 00:58:15.360 It definitely is. 00:58:15.860 --> 00:58:20.560 Don Hill: So back to what you were talking about earlier, um, that research, 00:58:20.650 --> 00:58:28.360 again has been done by curious scholars in reliable institutions and reputable 00:58:28.360 --> 00:58:33.040 institutions, and they were able to do these things more often than not 00:58:33.490 --> 00:58:38.121 because as kids or as youngsters or as young scientists, they were puzzled by 00:58:38.121 --> 00:58:43.796 these anomalies, but they had to wait until they had sufficient gravitas to 00:58:43.796 --> 00:58:45.626 be able to ask these crazy questions. 00:58:45.806 --> 00:58:47.366 I'll just repeat what I was saying earlier. 00:58:47.606 --> 00:58:50.396 I can't tell you how many times has this happened is that, you know, 00:58:50.396 --> 00:58:54.056 dawn or scientists, you know, you were right in the end about this 00:58:54.056 --> 00:58:55.226 crazy thing you were talking about. 00:58:55.226 --> 00:58:58.056 You were right about this, but this new stuff, this is too nuts. 00:58:58.076 --> 00:58:59.306 You just please don't go there. 00:58:59.786 --> 00:59:04.526 And it turns out to be, think about that it turns out to be a revolution in 00:59:04.526 --> 00:59:08.950 science, just completely changing our way of understanding and how things go. 00:59:09.550 --> 00:59:13.120 This generation that you comprise, you're kind of in the middle, right, 00:59:13.520 --> 00:59:17.570 is a generation that has never ever known a place without the internet. 00:59:18.056 --> 00:59:22.466 And very soon you might be the generation that no longer has to 00:59:22.466 --> 00:59:24.866 have a keyboard to be able to input. 00:59:25.366 --> 00:59:26.806 Now that's interesting, isn't it? 00:59:26.969 --> 00:59:27.255 Gab: Yeah. 00:59:27.400 --> 00:59:27.620 Jody: Yes. 00:59:27.826 --> 00:59:31.156 Don Hill: What What do we mean by, what do we mean by literacy now? 00:59:31.656 --> 00:59:32.826 That's a question I have. 00:59:33.186 --> 00:59:35.376 What do we mean by scientific literacy? 00:59:35.863 --> 00:59:39.133 Now, the scientific literacy that you and I have been talking about, 00:59:39.703 --> 00:59:45.733 Gabrielle and Jody, and, and you, dear listener, is, was, was often co-opted. 00:59:45.733 --> 00:59:50.173 You mentioned Cotton Mather, and others who claimed the authority 00:59:50.173 --> 00:59:51.763 to speak on behalf of something. 00:59:52.276 --> 00:59:55.396 Well, this is really interesting right now as going on about the United States 00:59:55.396 --> 00:59:56.926 being a great place for entrepreneurs. 00:59:57.293 --> 01:00:03.120 Um, at the time, you know, when Wilbur and Orville Wright, uh, were bicycle mechanics 01:00:03.120 --> 01:00:09.216 in Ohio, if they had been in Europe, they would not have been allowed to pursue 01:00:09.306 --> 01:00:16.296 the idea of mechanized flight because the academies in Europe claimed that the 01:00:16.296 --> 01:00:20.706 only people who could investigate these things had to be part of the academy. 01:00:21.036 --> 01:00:22.046 Do you see where I'm going with this? 01:00:22.056 --> 01:00:22.076 Gab: Yeah. 01:00:22.296 --> 01:00:28.206 Don Hill: This time for people with ideas and ideals to step up 01:00:28.956 --> 01:00:30.756 and, uh, let's see where it goes. 01:00:31.256 --> 01:00:31.586 Gab: Yeah. 01:00:31.676 --> 01:00:34.796 I think that's really interesting to put it into that perspective. 01:00:35.306 --> 01:00:35.836 Jody: We have the 01:00:35.836 --> 01:00:37.336 Gab: freedoms do what we want 01:00:37.346 --> 01:00:37.726 Right. 01:00:37.756 --> 01:00:38.576 Jody: Here you know, so 01:00:39.103 --> 01:00:40.980 Don Hill: Yeah, don't beat up on yourselves folks. 01:00:41.010 --> 01:00:41.340 Okay. 01:00:41.400 --> 01:00:41.760 Alright. 01:00:41.760 --> 01:00:43.260 This is, this is a trying time. 01:00:43.569 --> 01:00:44.326 Yeah, yeah. 01:00:44.776 --> 01:00:47.836 Uh, but at the same time, don't get co-opted into this, this 01:00:47.836 --> 01:00:52.486 binary it, it is, it is possible to say that both choices are worse. 01:00:52.906 --> 01:00:54.016 You know, I've said that before. 01:00:54.526 --> 01:00:57.466 Um, but it doesn't mean you have to be involved in that. 01:00:57.646 --> 01:01:02.416 I mean, we're obviously, we need to be involved because we're involved, but what 01:01:02.416 --> 01:01:04.306 I'm getting at, this is a fantastic time. 01:01:04.306 --> 01:01:07.486 There's, there's no, it's, it's almost like there were no rules. 01:01:08.026 --> 01:01:09.886 And in some cases I'm okay with that. 01:01:10.383 --> 01:01:13.173 I, get a little annoyed when people drive on the wrong side of the road, 01:01:13.503 --> 01:01:17.416 but, you know, you have to learn that you go to the UK and they're 01:01:17.416 --> 01:01:18.526 on the wrong side of the road. 01:01:18.526 --> 01:01:19.456 What's wrong with these people? 01:01:19.456 --> 01:01:20.506 Why do they drive on the left? 01:01:20.806 --> 01:01:21.436 I don't get this. 01:01:21.796 --> 01:01:25.486 Um, but anyway, you know, you think they wanna learn a few things by now. 01:01:26.816 --> 01:01:31.160 But, but, but do you know why they drive on the left In u in the uk. 01:01:31.580 --> 01:01:32.260 Gab: I don't think I do. 01:01:32.327 --> 01:01:32.610 Don Hill: Okay. 01:01:32.610 --> 01:01:33.190 Jody: think so either. 01:01:33.190 --> 01:01:33.310 No. 01:01:33.810 --> 01:01:35.040 Don Hill: No, and it's curious. 01:01:35.280 --> 01:01:38.400 Okay, so are you right-handed, Gabrielle? 01:01:38.700 --> 01:01:39.210 Gab: Yes. 01:01:39.690 --> 01:01:41.520 Don Hill: Are you, are you right-handed, Jody? 01:01:41.670 --> 01:01:42.090 Jody: Yes, I am. 01:01:42.636 --> 01:01:42.966 Don Hill: Okay. 01:01:43.206 --> 01:01:46.396 So now picture yourself on a horse with a sword, 01:01:46.796 --> 01:01:47.056 Jody: Ah! 01:01:47.176 --> 01:01:48.106 Don Hill: In your right hand 01:01:48.537 --> 01:01:48.751 Jody: Yep. 01:01:48.766 --> 01:01:50.776 Don Hill: you're facing off at an opponent. 01:01:51.676 --> 01:01:52.576 Gab: Okay. 01:01:52.576 --> 01:01:54.435 Don Hill: That's why they drive on the left. 01:01:55.066 --> 01:01:55.936 Gab: That makes sense. 01:01:56.436 --> 01:01:56.796 Don Hill: Alright. 01:01:56.916 --> 01:02:00.523 It was culture, it was how, and you have to remember I was 01:02:00.523 --> 01:02:01.993 going on about 20 minutes ago. 01:02:02.293 --> 01:02:06.303 You have to frame things in the reference of the culture at the time 01:02:06.473 --> 01:02:06.603 Jody: Mm-hmm, 01:02:06.673 --> 01:02:08.653 Don Hill: like religion means to bind community. 01:02:08.923 --> 01:02:12.853 So we're in a different space right now who says we need to have either 01:02:12.853 --> 01:02:18.088 people on the left or right when we have robot driving cars in a grid in 01:02:18.088 --> 01:02:23.653 a, in a a g six grid that already know where all the cars are, who said we 01:02:23.653 --> 01:02:28.033 have to line up in these directions and when we have robot cars who said that? 01:02:28.993 --> 01:02:30.943 We actually don't need to do that anymore. 01:02:30.973 --> 01:02:33.813 But we just do out a convenience to culture. 01:02:34.313 --> 01:02:35.863 But what would happen if we didn't? 01:02:36.133 --> 01:02:38.923 Well, first off, let's just say, let's just take that a step further. 01:02:39.733 --> 01:02:43.963 Let's say that you wanted to drive your car, physically drive it, you would 01:02:43.963 --> 01:02:46.093 have to pay 10 times more insurance. 01:02:46.273 --> 01:02:46.633 Why? 01:02:47.533 --> 01:02:48.643 Because you're a liability. 01:02:48.943 --> 01:02:50.713 The robots don't crash into cars. 01:02:51.103 --> 01:02:52.213 Now how do we know this? 01:02:52.243 --> 01:02:53.173 This is really weird. 01:02:53.383 --> 01:02:54.643 Do you ever watch Starlings? 01:02:54.643 --> 01:02:55.573 You're fascinated with? 01:02:55.753 --> 01:02:57.303 How do they term like they turn? 01:02:57.703 --> 01:02:59.893 Like is there a group mind going on there? 01:03:00.253 --> 01:03:02.083 You know, these starlings, they're flipping around. 01:03:02.623 --> 01:03:05.783 Well, if you know about the Champ Élysé-, the Champs-Élysées de 01:03:06.173 --> 01:03:10.410 that's that big, you know, arch Paris, France, That thing, right? 01:03:10.706 --> 01:03:11.906 I had the misfortune. 01:03:12.521 --> 01:03:17.681 In 1992, we were doing a, a TV documentary, and I was driving the 01:03:17.681 --> 01:03:20.801 car because the, the camera guy I was working with, I didn't give him a break. 01:03:21.221 --> 01:03:25.411 And I entered into the Champs-Élysées, which has no lines. 01:03:26.011 --> 01:03:27.871 It's a circle, it's like a roundabout. 01:03:28.355 --> 01:03:32.585 And I entered into it and I was terrified. 01:03:33.113 --> 01:03:35.688 And then I realized that everybody else was terrified too. 01:03:37.130 --> 01:03:40.610 And so we all, we all, we all kind of made our way, right? 01:03:41.030 --> 01:03:42.950 Like starlings to the exit. 01:03:43.295 --> 01:03:46.640 It, it didn't, it was kind of a kind of weird group mind. 01:03:47.210 --> 01:03:50.395 Um, and I'm going, oh, that's interesting. 01:03:51.315 --> 01:03:58.010 I had to let go and give myself to the group per se, because the moment 01:03:58.010 --> 01:04:01.100 I had to think about it, I probably would've crashed into something. 01:04:01.843 --> 01:04:03.530 Jody: Those, are those, uh, mirror neurons, 01:04:03.530 --> 01:04:03.740 right? 01:04:03.990 --> 01:04:04.740 Don Hill: Exactly. 01:04:04.950 --> 01:04:05.850 You got that there. 01:04:06.090 --> 01:04:06.540 Yeah. 01:04:06.810 --> 01:04:11.280 So our science is telling us things that we need to catch up with, where our 01:04:11.280 --> 01:04:13.020 science and engineering is taking us. 01:04:13.350 --> 01:04:17.386 We don't need to drive cars anymore in urban grids. 01:04:17.656 --> 01:04:18.646 We don't need to do that. 01:04:19.186 --> 01:04:23.386 If you have the latest EV, which is the connected, now, if you have 01:04:23.386 --> 01:04:27.736 a Tesla, as you probably already know, uh, the software, the car's 01:04:27.736 --> 01:04:29.176 cheap, the software's expensive. 01:04:29.296 --> 01:04:29.536 Jody: Right. 01:04:30.005 --> 01:04:30.396 Gab: Yeah. 01:04:31.051 --> 01:04:34.288 Don Hill: So you're of the age, you're going to see this, I, I 01:04:34.288 --> 01:04:35.938 bet I'm making a prediction here. 01:04:36.298 --> 01:04:40.691 But the question is when, um, and I think it might happen sooner 01:04:40.691 --> 01:04:42.461 than later, there's another point. 01:04:42.641 --> 01:04:45.825 Why does everybody have to own the car that sits in the 01:04:45.825 --> 01:04:47.235 garage for 22 hours a day? 01:04:47.235 --> 01:04:47.415 Jody: Yeah, 01:04:47.420 --> 01:04:48.060 No, it's a good point. 01:04:48.300 --> 01:04:49.940 I mean, where we live personally, 01:04:50.050 --> 01:04:54.871 like we don't have public transportation In Northeast Pa. It's just, 01:04:54.871 --> 01:04:55.456 it's not here. 01:04:56.001 --> 01:04:56.636 You have to go to New York City or, 01:04:56.686 --> 01:04:59.266 Don Hill: but you actually, actually do. 01:04:59.266 --> 01:05:00.946 I'm giving you, like, look at you guys. 01:05:01.276 --> 01:05:02.446 I bequeath this to you. 01:05:02.609 --> 01:05:02.791 Okay. 01:05:03.676 --> 01:05:04.036 Alright. 01:05:04.606 --> 01:05:09.156 You get a fleet of cars that are restricted to operate in only a 01:05:09.156 --> 01:05:12.846 grid that you make up in the town or village or city that you live in. 01:05:13.476 --> 01:05:15.186 It's just like in London, England. 01:05:15.696 --> 01:05:19.206 Cab drivers can only work within a certain, or New York for that matter. 01:05:19.656 --> 01:05:23.046 New York City, they only work in a very prescribed area. 01:05:23.226 --> 01:05:25.356 They know that area, like the back of their hands. 01:05:25.536 --> 01:05:30.456 In fact, in London, England, to take the test requires a prodigious memory. 01:05:30.876 --> 01:05:33.816 And most people fail before they get their license to operate. 01:05:34.266 --> 01:05:37.626 Not so much in New York where you have to get a, um, medallion, so to speak. 01:05:37.926 --> 01:05:40.930 But what I'm getting at, if you have public transit, reimagined 01:05:42.610 --> 01:05:47.230 as transit, that you call up on your phone and the car picks up and 01:05:47.230 --> 01:05:48.490 takes you to where you want to go. 01:05:48.848 --> 01:05:49.048 Jody: Ahh 01:05:50.226 --> 01:05:53.436 Don Hill: That's a different kind of model than some city hall guys than 01:05:53.446 --> 01:05:55.176 Jody: I see, so it's, it's basically a fleet 01:05:55.176 --> 01:05:55.376 Don Hill: Yeah. 01:05:55.476 --> 01:05:59.119 You see what I'm getting at this is, and this is where the science tells us we're 01:05:59.119 --> 01:06:01.189 already at, we can actually do this now, 01:06:01.746 --> 01:06:02.096 Jody: Right. 01:06:02.696 --> 01:06:03.086 Gab: Yeah. 01:06:03.386 --> 01:06:04.436 That's interesting. 01:06:04.822 --> 01:06:05.162 Don Hill: Isn't it? 01:06:05.639 --> 01:06:05.859 Jody: Yeah. 01:06:05.949 --> 01:06:07.389 Well, we limit ourselves, that's. 01:06:07.459 --> 01:06:07.549 Gab: We do. 01:06:07.602 --> 01:06:09.577 Don Hill: I think you just invented a business for yourself. 01:06:11.110 --> 01:06:14.080 and the smaller the community, the better, if you think about it 01:06:14.270 --> 01:06:14.480 Gab: Yeah. 01:06:14.480 --> 01:06:15.186 Don Hill: Or neighborhood, 01:06:15.536 --> 01:06:18.566 I mean, let's, let's face it, if, if you're living in a city, 01:06:19.016 --> 01:06:21.746 let's just say you were, let's say you were living in Boston, okay? 01:06:21.846 --> 01:06:24.756 Let's say you were, when was the last time you went to the, the end 01:06:24.756 --> 01:06:26.076 of the Charles River in Boston? 01:06:26.286 --> 01:06:28.556 Most people won't even know what you're talking about, okay. 01:06:28.886 --> 01:06:30.246 They live in their quadrants. 01:06:30.586 --> 01:06:34.816 In, in some cases they might be living in, uh, Harvard Square and you don't need a 01:06:34.816 --> 01:06:36.976 car or, you know, you can jump on transit. 01:06:37.276 --> 01:06:39.906 We don't live in the entirety of the city 01:06:40.166 --> 01:06:40.536 Gab: Right. 01:06:40.616 --> 01:06:42.436 Don Hill: Uh, if you do, that's, that's amazing. 01:06:42.436 --> 01:06:42.946 That's what I'm trying. 01:06:42.976 --> 01:06:44.416 We tend to live in our neighborhoods. 01:06:44.836 --> 01:06:47.896 And those neighborhoods tend to, and this is where it gets interesting 01:06:47.896 --> 01:06:52.846 as well, is it never seems to extend more than maybe 10 kilometers or 01:06:52.846 --> 01:06:57.526 six miles away from where you would constitute the center of where you live. 01:06:58.096 --> 01:07:02.266 And the reason for that also is interesting is that was the amount 01:07:02.506 --> 01:07:06.286 of travel time a horse could be expected to do in one day. 01:07:07.261 --> 01:07:08.881 Six miles six miles back 01:07:08.921 --> 01:07:09.741 Jody: Social engineering. 01:07:09.941 --> 01:07:10.361 Don Hill: So we're still living. 01:07:10.881 --> 01:07:11.371 That's right. 01:07:11.671 --> 01:07:15.811 And why I'm leaving that is our bodies, our bodies are still 01:07:15.811 --> 01:07:17.521 living in the 19th century per se. 01:07:17.521 --> 01:07:21.241 You were saying this yourself, we're still not adjusting well to light. 01:07:21.391 --> 01:07:27.661 Our bodies are still very old and they're not catching up to the modernity of 01:07:27.661 --> 01:07:31.891 which our devices are doing and what our devices are doing for our bodies. 01:07:32.161 --> 01:07:33.721 We're making up as we go along. 01:07:34.471 --> 01:07:36.691 So we should start to track that, I would say, 01:07:37.036 --> 01:07:37.426 Gab: Yeah. 01:07:37.501 --> 01:07:38.971 Don Hill: with some of the things I just talked about. 01:07:39.751 --> 01:07:42.251 So this is a great time to be alive especially if you're young. 01:07:42.658 --> 01:07:43.738 Gab: Yeah, it is. 01:07:43.738 --> 01:07:48.861 It's interesting to see like even from being a child, sure even more 01:07:48.861 --> 01:07:53.451 so, for you to see the changes that have gone on since like childhood 01:07:53.451 --> 01:07:55.101 and adolescence up until today. 01:07:55.601 --> 01:07:56.021 Don Hill: Oh yeah. 01:07:56.081 --> 01:08:01.751 Well you see, when you hear my empathy for the American experience and just, 01:08:01.751 --> 01:08:05.591 you know, all truth to tell, um, half my family is from New York City. 01:08:06.326 --> 01:08:09.086 And the other half, uh, is in Canada. 01:08:09.086 --> 01:08:13.076 And the reason it had to do with the end of the second World War, my mother and her 01:08:13.076 --> 01:08:15.956 sister were refugees, as you could say. 01:08:15.956 --> 01:08:21.236 They closed the, um, internment camps, or they were called Displaced person camps. 01:08:21.656 --> 01:08:26.606 My mother and her sister were Polish and, uh, they told them, everybody go home now. 01:08:27.106 --> 01:08:30.406 And so her sister, well, to go home for my mother would be 01:08:30.406 --> 01:08:32.056 going to the Russian enclave. 01:08:32.386 --> 01:08:35.716 And that was not gonna happen because already the stories were coming out 01:08:35.716 --> 01:08:40.936 about how miserable it was for the people who did go back home, uh, to Poland. 01:08:41.446 --> 01:08:44.086 Uh, her sister in the meantime time had married and was a war 01:08:44.086 --> 01:08:48.526 bride, uh, American Lieutenant as it turns out, from New York City. 01:08:49.006 --> 01:08:51.346 So when I was growing up, and I wanna go back to what you were saying. 01:08:51.676 --> 01:08:56.870 In 1965, I was with my cousin Anthony at the New York World Fair. 01:08:56.930 --> 01:09:02.810 He was older than me and my, my aunt said, meet us here at this spot at five o'clock. 01:09:03.050 --> 01:09:06.440 And we, we were there like all week, not every day. 01:09:06.740 --> 01:09:09.470 We had full run of the New York World's Fair at 65. 01:09:09.980 --> 01:09:13.620 So I saw the future then, uh, of what was being proposed at that time. 01:09:14.250 --> 01:09:17.820 And, uh, at the same time, my cousin Anthony and other friends, they 01:09:17.820 --> 01:09:20.970 will come up to where I was living in Northern Ontario in a mining 01:09:20.970 --> 01:09:22.950 town, Sudbury as it turns out. 01:09:23.250 --> 01:09:25.380 And they would spend their summers by the lake and sort of 01:09:25.380 --> 01:09:27.240 genteel and avoid the winter. 01:09:27.660 --> 01:09:28.920 So I've got this kind of split. 01:09:29.726 --> 01:09:31.616 Sense of what the future might have been. 01:09:32.023 --> 01:09:35.023 And I would say that some of the things that the future was 01:09:35.023 --> 01:09:39.440 proposed at the New York World's Fair was one was animatronics. 01:09:39.833 --> 01:09:43.103 Uh, the Disney Corporation as we understand it today, had 01:09:43.103 --> 01:09:45.503 a animatronics of Lincoln, 01:09:46.283 --> 01:09:47.753 uh, president Lincoln Yeah. 01:09:47.933 --> 01:09:51.053 Coming out and giving, uh, a speech. 01:09:51.143 --> 01:09:52.326 And that was incredible. 01:09:52.866 --> 01:09:56.106 But then again, on the other animatronics was it's a small world, 01:09:56.616 --> 01:10:00.366 uh, which I think to this day, yeah, right to this day is running, I think 01:10:00.366 --> 01:10:01.896 either in Florida or California. 01:10:02.436 --> 01:10:02.796 Um, 01:10:02.976 --> 01:10:03.156 Jody: Yeah. 01:10:03.156 --> 01:10:03.846 It's in Florida. 01:10:04.126 --> 01:10:09.016 Don Hill: yeah, we saw all this stuff that proposed a future that was bright and 01:10:09.016 --> 01:10:12.406 shiny and progressive and all those words. 01:10:12.916 --> 01:10:16.546 Uh, and conveniently ignore the fact that we're humans and we're 01:10:16.546 --> 01:10:21.466 competitive, and that sadly war brings out the best in technology. 01:10:21.886 --> 01:10:22.266 Gab: Yeah. 01:10:22.496 --> 01:10:23.582 Jody: And everything's for sale. 01:10:24.106 --> 01:10:24.376 Don Hill: Yeah. 01:10:24.716 --> 01:10:25.576 You see what I'm getting at? 01:10:25.786 --> 01:10:29.820 So this current situation that we find ourselves in right now, like 01:10:29.820 --> 01:10:34.230 Gulf War One, if I could talk about that nobody had seen ever before 01:10:34.710 --> 01:10:36.660 because nobody had access to GPS 01:10:37.070 --> 01:10:37.530 Jody: Mm-hmm, 01:10:37.680 --> 01:10:39.300 Don Hill: and that was Gulf War One. 01:10:39.390 --> 01:10:40.470 That was the announcement of that. 01:10:40.980 --> 01:10:45.810 What we're seeing in these current conflicts are robots, ais, and drones. 01:10:46.190 --> 01:10:49.960 Which is interesting and to be announced, we have no idea what's coming 01:10:49.960 --> 01:10:54.280 up, but I can assure you, based on the history of war, we're about to witness 01:10:54.280 --> 01:10:56.140 something that nobody's ever seen before. 01:10:56.530 --> 01:11:00.910 That's not to create anxiety, that's just to be alert to the changes that we'll 01:11:00.910 --> 01:11:02.800 be living with over the next one oh, 01:11:03.085 --> 01:11:04.780 Jody: I think everybody's quite alert to that. 01:11:04.810 --> 01:11:05.100 yeah, 01:11:05.746 --> 01:11:06.846 Don Hill: yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 01:11:07.006 --> 01:11:09.196 One of them will be extreme surveillance though. 01:11:10.036 --> 01:11:12.316 So let me just give you one more T-shirt. 01:11:12.916 --> 01:11:15.016 The best place to hide something is out in the open. 01:11:15.516 --> 01:11:16.386 I'll say that again. 01:11:17.016 --> 01:11:20.246 The best place to hide something is out in the open. 01:11:20.606 --> 01:11:20.956 Gab: Yeah. 01:11:21.076 --> 01:11:23.616 Don Hill: The question then becomes, and the query string, right? 01:11:24.066 --> 01:11:25.116 What are you looking for? 01:11:25.356 --> 01:11:26.346 Like, and that's it. 01:11:26.766 --> 01:11:31.566 And what often has occurred in the history of surveillance is they 01:11:31.566 --> 01:11:35.706 were staring at it, what they were looking for, but because it didn't 01:11:35.706 --> 01:11:40.349 match the concept of what they were looking for, they couldn't see it. 01:11:40.919 --> 01:11:43.199 So I wanna go back to with the paranormal stuff, right? 01:11:43.679 --> 01:11:48.629 I think you've seen the, um, this is rock solid science, the gorilla in the suit 01:11:48.629 --> 01:11:50.639 on a basketball court, basketball court. 01:11:50.669 --> 01:11:51.509 Have you seen that video? 01:11:51.989 --> 01:11:52.439 Gab: Yeah. 01:11:52.599 --> 01:11:52.839 Don Hill: Right? 01:11:52.899 --> 01:11:54.039 Just, just for the listener. 01:11:54.399 --> 01:11:59.449 What it is, is you are instructed to watch the basketball being 01:11:59.449 --> 01:12:04.149 dribbled by a group of athletes who are moving around in a circle. 01:12:05.004 --> 01:12:06.624 Am I being accurate on this Gabrielle? 01:12:06.704 --> 01:12:07.024 Gab: Yeah. 01:12:07.204 --> 01:12:08.484 Don Hill: Is that how you remember it? 01:12:08.844 --> 01:12:13.577 And then what happens as we're watching with extreme focus, extreme attention 01:12:13.847 --> 01:12:15.547 on the basketball being dribbled. 01:12:16.217 --> 01:12:17.627 What happens, Gabrielle? 01:12:17.814 --> 01:12:18.294 Do you remember? 01:12:18.679 --> 01:12:20.490 Gab: A gorilla walks in the background. 01:12:20.740 --> 01:12:22.480 Don Hill: A gorilla in a gorilla suit? 01:12:22.780 --> 01:12:23.140 Okay. 01:12:23.590 --> 01:12:24.190 Does what? 01:12:24.655 --> 01:12:25.555 Gab: They walk by. 01:12:26.055 --> 01:12:27.645 Don Hill: Walks right in between them? 01:12:27.645 --> 01:12:28.725 Dr. Dribbling the 01:12:28.725 --> 01:12:29.145 ball. 01:12:29.520 --> 01:12:30.050 Gab: Yes that's right. 01:12:30.550 --> 01:12:32.140 Don Hill: Why didn't you see it? 01:12:32.312 --> 01:12:33.122 Is the question. 01:12:33.258 --> 01:12:34.938 Gab: Because you're so hyper-focused. 01:12:34.938 --> 01:12:35.748 Don Hill: Exactly. 01:12:36.048 --> 01:12:41.328 So my point is the AIs okay aren't hyper-focused. 01:12:41.808 --> 01:12:43.398 They have no value system. 01:12:43.998 --> 01:12:44.958 It's like money. 01:12:45.378 --> 01:12:46.728 They don't have a personality. 01:12:46.968 --> 01:12:50.252 Money only goes to where it flows best. 01:12:50.652 --> 01:12:52.722 Money is not bad or evil. 01:12:53.082 --> 01:12:57.762 Human beings make it bad or evil money just goes as a placeholder. 01:12:58.032 --> 01:12:59.612 The same thing with the AIs. 01:12:59.862 --> 01:13:04.008 And if you can't see what you're not looking for, there lies the problem. 01:13:04.508 --> 01:13:04.798 Gab: Yeah. 01:13:05.298 --> 01:13:08.208 Don Hill: So now you see why the paranormal research 01:13:08.498 --> 01:13:10.118 needs to be better funded. 01:13:10.615 --> 01:13:11.017 Jody: Oh yeah. 01:13:11.027 --> 01:13:11.887 I absolutely agree. 01:13:11.887 --> 01:13:12.397 Gab: Oh, yeah. 01:13:12.527 --> 01:13:15.917 Jody: The problem is, is it's, it's not, it's not seen as science. 01:13:16.157 --> 01:13:16.487 Gab: Right. 01:13:16.487 --> 01:13:19.990 And it has no, like baseline to operate out of. 01:13:19.990 --> 01:13:24.610 There's no like contextual framework on how to operate within the field. 01:13:24.610 --> 01:13:26.230 Everyone just does their own thing. 01:13:26.423 --> 01:13:28.973 Don Hill: Well, that's certainly true because there isn't, like, uh, there 01:13:28.973 --> 01:13:33.503 has been, but there's places like, uh, Princeton, the Para Lab with Robert John. 01:13:33.863 --> 01:13:39.053 These places have been dismantled, uh, largely because of funding, but let's, 01:13:39.173 --> 01:13:40.703 let's be very honest with one or another. 01:13:41.243 --> 01:13:44.453 If we can be, and if, and you don't have to say this, this is an old man 01:13:44.723 --> 01:13:48.953 talking to younger people is we've gone through a period of suppression 01:13:48.953 --> 01:13:53.793 and fascism and that was mind you all down in the name of progressiveness. 01:13:54.573 --> 01:13:59.133 But DEI or DIE, uh, depending on your point of view, has 01:13:59.133 --> 01:14:01.023 suppressed a number of people. 01:14:01.023 --> 01:14:05.283 Just the ability to ask a question in a university setting. 01:14:05.853 --> 01:14:09.453 Now you can go along like you do dear listener and say, well, do you need your 01:14:09.453 --> 01:14:10.683 support, this, that and the other thing? 01:14:10.983 --> 01:14:12.333 That's not what I'm talking about. 01:14:12.903 --> 01:14:17.523 That if science is the pursuit of the unknown, then there's no such 01:14:17.523 --> 01:14:19.593 thing as a bad question, is there? 01:14:19.873 --> 01:14:20.203 Jody: No. 01:14:20.253 --> 01:14:20.843 Gab: No. 01:14:20.973 --> 01:14:25.178 Don Hill: What there is is measurement and what Michael Persinger and 01:14:25.178 --> 01:14:30.315 others did was they asked a series of questions and sometimes they found 01:14:30.315 --> 01:14:34.065 out what they found out and they can say, you can say, oh, good thing 01:14:34.065 --> 01:14:35.625 we didn't go any further with this. 01:14:35.895 --> 01:14:37.365 This leads into a brick wall. 01:14:37.869 --> 01:14:38.461 Gab: Right. 01:14:38.750 --> 01:14:39.860 Don Hill: Yeah, you see what I'm getting at? 01:14:39.965 --> 01:14:41.915 Gab: You have to go there to find that out. 01:14:41.969 --> 01:14:42.238 Jody: Yep. 01:14:42.545 --> 01:14:43.445 Don Hill: Exactly. 01:14:43.475 --> 01:14:46.175 Now we're, we're completely on the same page, so to speak, but 01:14:46.175 --> 01:14:50.525 when you have a group of people claiming to speak on behalf, this 01:14:50.525 --> 01:14:51.615 is no different than Cotton Mather. 01:14:52.595 --> 01:14:53.165 No different. 01:14:53.255 --> 01:14:55.435 It's the same movie, just a different ending. 01:14:55.635 --> 01:14:55.975 Gab: Yeah. 01:14:56.225 --> 01:14:58.715 Don Hill: And everything, it all, it always ends up bad. 01:14:59.255 --> 01:15:03.335 So it's always a bad, it's like LA Confidential, the movie, all 01:15:03.335 --> 01:15:06.065 the actors are bad in that movie. 01:15:06.395 --> 01:15:08.135 We don't need, we don't need to go there. 01:15:08.315 --> 01:15:09.815 Okay, look, the actors are good. 01:15:10.085 --> 01:15:11.585 It's the characters that are bad. 01:15:11.675 --> 01:15:12.605 Let's just put it that way. 01:15:12.755 --> 01:15:12.995 Yeah. 01:15:13.710 --> 01:15:16.680 So that's where we sit at this moment here in 2026. 01:15:17.160 --> 01:15:21.420 We have some choices to make, uh, especially with our hardware, the 01:15:21.420 --> 01:15:26.190 machines, whether these machines are gonna be taken away from us, meaning guardrails 01:15:26.190 --> 01:15:28.050 or governments saying, pulling the plug. 01:15:28.260 --> 01:15:29.220 I have no idea. 01:15:29.580 --> 01:15:33.810 But right now, just to say that T-shirt, nothing is forbidden. 01:15:34.380 --> 01:15:36.630 Everything is permitted until it isn't. 01:15:36.945 --> 01:15:37.365 Gab: Right. 01:15:37.865 --> 01:15:38.195 Yeah. 01:15:38.695 --> 01:15:41.495 Jody: So I don't know how much time you have left, but I've had a question 01:15:41.587 --> 01:15:43.475 burning in my mind for a long time, 01:15:44.252 --> 01:15:44.462 Don Hill: Yeah. 01:15:44.462 --> 01:15:44.972 Go ahead please. 01:15:45.397 --> 01:15:47.402 Jody: It has to do with, uh, the schumann 01:15:47.402 --> 01:15:47.982 resonance. 01:15:48.245 --> 01:15:48.755 Don Hill: Yes. 01:15:49.255 --> 01:15:53.168 Well, the Schumann resonance, as you know, was discovered by a guy named Schumann. 01:15:54.230 --> 01:15:59.720 And, uh, and it, it, the best way to put it is think of yourself in 01:15:59.720 --> 01:16:01.996 an envelope, but it's circular. 01:16:02.496 --> 01:16:06.476 And if you put yourself on the surface of the planet, that envelope, 01:16:06.476 --> 01:16:07.976 you are inside that envelope. 01:16:08.696 --> 01:16:12.026 And it's resonating at a very specific, it's a warble, it's got a specific 01:16:12.026 --> 01:16:14.036 frequency, but it warbles a bit. 01:16:14.306 --> 01:16:14.516 Okay. 01:16:15.086 --> 01:16:18.786 Now, at this point, I don't know what I'm talking about in the 01:16:18.786 --> 01:16:21.816 sense that we haven't completely explored this, but I'll speculate. 01:16:22.381 --> 01:16:22.671 Jody: Okay. 01:16:23.196 --> 01:16:27.116 Don Hill: Is it possible that the Schumann resonance, which is an 01:16:27.116 --> 01:16:32.046 electromagnetic spectrum, contains information, contains data? 01:16:32.456 --> 01:16:33.416 Is that possible? 01:16:34.076 --> 01:16:34.706 Might be. 01:16:35.206 --> 01:16:41.596 After all this conversation that we're having right now is over an AirPod that 01:16:41.596 --> 01:16:47.680 I have in my right ear, and my voice is being transmuted into a transducer, which 01:16:47.680 --> 01:16:54.826 sends it by Bluetooth to my phone, which then sends it to you in a variety of ways. 01:16:55.276 --> 01:16:57.976 And it's transduced on your end, and you hear me. 01:16:58.386 --> 01:17:03.366 And all along the way, data packets, packets of data are moving back and 01:17:03.366 --> 01:17:05.121 forth and we think nothing of it. 01:17:05.721 --> 01:17:06.141 Why? 01:17:06.501 --> 01:17:12.618 Because we had to learn since telegraphy in the 1850s of how to 01:17:12.618 --> 01:17:15.138 what we call multiplex information. 01:17:15.498 --> 01:17:16.728 Am I getting too complex here? 01:17:16.758 --> 01:17:20.108 'cause the next one is perhaps the most important thing that I 01:17:20.118 --> 01:17:21.888 have to say about the speculation. 01:17:22.080 --> 01:17:23.025 Gab: No, I don't think so. 01:17:23.200 --> 01:17:23.550 Jody: Nope. 01:17:23.550 --> 01:17:24.250 I'm on the same page. 01:17:24.480 --> 01:17:28.801 Don Hill: Okay, so, so back on the early days of telegraphy using 01:17:28.801 --> 01:17:32.714 copper wire, copper is very conducive to what I'm about to talk about. 01:17:33.434 --> 01:17:35.234 There was no such thing as multiplexing. 01:17:35.534 --> 01:17:40.814 What happened was you went on one end, the morse code telegraph guy 01:17:40.994 --> 01:17:45.749 would code you go da da da da da da da, da, da-dit, dit, whatever, okay? 01:17:46.334 --> 01:17:50.794 And you would have to wait for the other guy on the other end of the line 01:17:51.274 --> 01:17:53.494 to acknowledge it and then send back. 01:17:53.954 --> 01:17:58.484 Now you can see that that's really slow and as a business you're not 01:17:58.484 --> 01:18:01.184 gonna be making a lot of money unless you're charging a lot of cash. 01:18:01.591 --> 01:18:05.294 So what they discovered was multiplexing, what was discovered, that you could 01:18:05.294 --> 01:18:10.874 send more than one conversation at a time by adjusting the frequency. 01:18:11.204 --> 01:18:11.534 Jody: Mm-hmm. 01:18:11.694 --> 01:18:14.919 Don Hill: So instead of going, da-da, da-da di-da, dit, you go, 01:18:15.069 --> 01:18:16.279 da-da, da-da di-da, dit,  da-da, da-da di-da, dit,  di-da, dit, 01:18:18.529 --> 01:18:21.104 et cetera, and they could all go at the same time. 01:18:21.494 --> 01:18:25.874 As long as you are agreed on one handshake of the frequency that you're 01:18:25.874 --> 01:18:30.704 engaging with the other side, all going back and forth on one wire, multiples. 01:18:31.404 --> 01:18:33.479 Multiplexed conversations. 01:18:33.929 --> 01:18:35.669 Is this, am I still being clear or is 01:18:35.669 --> 01:18:36.179 this getting 01:18:36.324 --> 01:18:39.694 Jody: Yeah no it's, it makes sense to me, multiple, broadcasts all at the same time, 01:18:39.694 --> 01:18:40.054 but, 01:18:40.458 --> 01:18:40.848 Don Hill: Right, exactly 01:18:41.346 --> 01:18:44.111 Jody: The receiving the receiving end is receiving at a different frequency, 01:18:44.111 --> 01:18:45.246 so it's, it's separated at that point 01:18:45.296 --> 01:18:45.596 Don Hill: Yeah. 01:18:45.866 --> 01:18:46.136 Yeah. 01:18:46.496 --> 01:18:47.846 And this is analog. 01:18:48.476 --> 01:18:48.686 Okay. 01:18:48.686 --> 01:18:50.516 The key piece, is it's analog? 01:18:50.846 --> 01:18:51.146 Okay. 01:18:51.926 --> 01:18:56.356 So the Schumann resonance may contain information or it may not. 01:18:57.016 --> 01:19:00.856 It depends on what frequency you're tuned into, or maybe no frequency. 01:19:01.126 --> 01:19:04.906 Now, when I talked to Native American elders about these things that I did, 01:19:04.906 --> 01:19:08.836 and all this stuff is available, if you track my name and look at, uh, 01:19:09.526 --> 01:19:11.446 uh, Leroy Little Bear, who's he? 01:19:11.866 --> 01:19:16.376 He used to be the, um, he was at Harvard actually, and he was the, uh, 01:19:16.376 --> 01:19:20.036 chair of Native Studies at one time, and he came back into the Southern 01:19:20.036 --> 01:19:22.946 prairie here on the Black Foot Reserve. 01:19:23.246 --> 01:19:25.736 This is north of the Black Feet Reserve in Montana. 01:19:26.216 --> 01:19:31.256 Um, and he took me to a place which I did, uh, in the 360 piece, by the 01:19:31.256 --> 01:19:35.846 way, that you can use for VR, virtual reality headsets, more blah, blah, blah. 01:19:35.846 --> 01:19:37.346 Sorry, I better cut to the chase here, Don. 01:19:38.156 --> 01:19:41.216 We were at a place called Writing on stone, writing on stone. 01:19:41.486 --> 01:19:45.996 It's a remarkable spot on the Milk River in southern Alberta, and, uh, it 01:19:45.996 --> 01:19:50.206 contains miles and miles of petro glyphs. 01:19:50.506 --> 01:19:55.331 These are impressions pecked out in the sandstone, but more important, 01:19:55.331 --> 01:19:58.451 you remember when you were watching the Road Runner cartoon on TV with 01:19:58.451 --> 01:19:59.621 bugs bunny and stuff like that? 01:19:59.861 --> 01:20:00.491 The road runner. 01:20:00.821 --> 01:20:01.211 Do you remember? 01:20:01.216 --> 01:20:06.911 In, in the Desert they'd have these, you know, uh, these tabletop type structures 01:20:06.911 --> 01:20:09.161 in the desert, in the road runner run by. 01:20:09.401 --> 01:20:14.471 Okay, so imagine that if you will, and the, there's a persistent wind that 01:20:14.471 --> 01:20:16.421 comes out of the Rocky Mountains nearby. 01:20:16.661 --> 01:20:17.741 It never stops. 01:20:18.191 --> 01:20:24.341 And what he pointed out to me is that in this writing on Stone Place, it actually 01:20:24.461 --> 01:20:27.701 hums with the wind in a frequency. 01:20:27.881 --> 01:20:32.571 It's in the key of D. And the key of D is interesting for people who 01:20:32.571 --> 01:20:35.571 are inter, I, I've just noticed a bunch of people's eyebrows going up. 01:20:35.901 --> 01:20:39.861 The key of D you say that's a sacred frequency to some people 01:20:40.361 --> 01:20:44.861 that it brings about noetic or liminal experiences or all that. 01:20:44.861 --> 01:20:48.131 The other fancy language meaning spiritual, and that's what 01:20:48.131 --> 01:20:49.241 he was pointing them toward. 01:20:49.511 --> 01:20:53.879 Is that the actual petroglyphs were not to be revered, so to speak. 01:20:54.179 --> 01:20:58.049 It's kind of like a stop sign, uh, is that, you know, or X marks the 01:20:58.049 --> 01:21:03.269 spot or turn left here to hit the turnpike or I 95, you know what I mean? 01:21:03.269 --> 01:21:03.929 That kind of stuff. 01:21:04.289 --> 01:21:07.589 These are markers, but not always have to be very careful about that. 01:21:08.029 --> 01:21:11.029 Uh, it's marking with something that's going on in the environment. 01:21:11.599 --> 01:21:16.309 Another spot nearby, as it turns out, also has what we will call a medicine 01:21:16.309 --> 01:21:20.839 wheel by contemporary standards, again, laid out along the prairie and it 01:21:20.839 --> 01:21:23.449 hums as well too, with standing waves. 01:21:23.449 --> 01:21:26.929 And I've recorded those things, uh, oh gee, 15 years ago. 01:21:26.929 --> 01:21:27.499 My goodness. 01:21:27.904 --> 01:21:30.019 And that's available on my band camp site. 01:21:30.259 --> 01:21:32.539 You don't have to pay me, just listen carefully. 01:21:32.913 --> 01:21:34.323 And if you want to, that's fine too. 01:21:34.683 --> 01:21:37.143 But I, I, it's, it's public information. 01:21:37.443 --> 01:21:38.283 The more the merrier. 01:21:39.243 --> 01:21:42.843 Steal it, take it you need to use it whatever you wanna do, you know. 01:21:43.323 --> 01:21:46.953 Um, so that's a long, long-winded answer to a short question. 01:21:47.253 --> 01:21:51.093 Well, when it gets down to Schumann resonance is a natural, 01:21:51.663 --> 01:21:56.073 it engulfs all human beings on the planet and it resonates. 01:21:56.073 --> 01:22:00.063 So whenever the sun behaves badly, as I said earlier, and we have an 01:22:00.063 --> 01:22:05.733 aurora or a, or especially a G2 storm, it will ring the Schumann resonance 01:22:05.733 --> 01:22:07.586 like a bell and it will go off. 01:22:07.766 --> 01:22:10.346 And that's with the warble and that's actually been measured. 01:22:10.746 --> 01:22:11.016 Yeah. 01:22:11.076 --> 01:22:12.066 So I should leave it there. 01:22:12.126 --> 01:22:13.596 Otherwise I'm gonna go down a rabbit hole. 01:22:13.846 --> 01:22:17.314 Gab: No, I think that's interesting even to learn that like in nature, we're 01:22:17.314 --> 01:22:23.254 getting that, you know, that specific resonance to be just happening naturally. 01:22:23.609 --> 01:22:23.969 Don Hill: Yeah. 01:22:24.104 --> 01:22:26.939 And, and, and so, and let's, let's face it, how many people do you 01:22:26.939 --> 01:22:28.859 know have left the Earth orbit? 01:22:29.279 --> 01:22:31.709 I mean, let's forget about the International Space Station. 01:22:32.129 --> 01:22:33.689 It's in near Earth orbit. 01:22:33.779 --> 01:22:35.369 It's only about 200 miles up. 01:22:35.869 --> 01:22:37.909 We've only, how many people have you had go to the moon? 01:22:38.129 --> 01:22:39.039 Gab: Not very many. 01:22:39.069 --> 01:22:39.659 Don Hill: Exactly. 01:22:39.729 --> 01:22:40.439 Very few. 01:22:40.746 --> 01:22:44.496 And what we learned, let me, uh, we are living on a giant magnet. 01:22:45.096 --> 01:22:48.639 The earth's core as it moves, is a magnet. 01:22:49.026 --> 01:22:53.399 It's generating, and we are living like peach fuzz on the peach fuz of the planet. 01:22:53.939 --> 01:22:57.499 we we know as human beings, if we go too deep on the ocean 01:22:57.499 --> 01:22:59.179 floor, we don't do very well. 01:22:59.566 --> 01:23:03.016 We also know if we go up to the top of mountains like Everest, 01:23:03.406 --> 01:23:04.666 yeah, some people can do it. 01:23:04.816 --> 01:23:08.606 These are exceptional people, like we talked about before, but almost 01:23:08.606 --> 01:23:10.313 always they come back changed. 01:23:10.706 --> 01:23:11.456 How do we know this? 01:23:11.756 --> 01:23:14.066 We've actually measured the changes in people. 01:23:14.276 --> 01:23:17.966 For example, at the International Space Station, they come back different. 01:23:18.296 --> 01:23:20.531 Their physiology has been altered. 01:23:20.966 --> 01:23:25.936 So all of this talk about going to Mars might be stupid because 01:23:25.936 --> 01:23:27.076 our bodies can't take it. 01:23:27.616 --> 01:23:30.766 And if our bodies change with gamma rays, for starters. 01:23:31.336 --> 01:23:37.006 Um, we also know that cognition changes, and that's a fact, 01:23:37.006 --> 01:23:38.446 that's our science knows this. 01:23:38.896 --> 01:23:43.306 So I said to a group of scientists, as I mentioned earlier, I was invited to 01:23:43.306 --> 01:23:48.826 give a talk in Moscow at the Institute for Mathematical Problems of Biology. 01:23:49.096 --> 01:23:51.076 There is such a thing, I won't say it in Russian. 01:23:51.556 --> 01:23:54.226 And I was their representative of, of the lab there. 01:23:54.646 --> 01:23:58.996 And I, I said to these, uh, assembled scientists, uh, I said, well, look, 01:23:58.996 --> 01:24:03.346 and I know that Russia, this is 2017, uh, has the aspiration to go to 01:24:03.346 --> 01:24:05.105 Mars, because that's what they did. 01:24:05.193 --> 01:24:07.203 That was what the whole space program was about. 01:24:07.683 --> 01:24:12.093 Uh, the space race in the 1950s and sixties was eventually to go to Mars. 01:24:12.123 --> 01:24:12.813 First the moon. 01:24:13.213 --> 01:24:14.227 And here we are again. 01:24:14.887 --> 01:24:17.377 But I said to them, I said, look, you know what we've learned along the way, 01:24:17.377 --> 01:24:21.337 especially this institute, you've learned a bunch of things and uh, and you know 01:24:21.337 --> 01:24:27.177 that if you're going to send a crew to Mars, um, and it's gonna take a few 01:24:27.177 --> 01:24:32.217 months, uh, that one of the members of your crew, uh, should be a shaman. 01:24:32.717 --> 01:24:34.307 Eyebrows up, pencils down. 01:24:34.337 --> 01:24:35.747 What does he mean by this? 01:24:36.064 --> 01:24:41.927 Um, I said, well, as you know, as the physiology is of people in space, is gonna 01:24:41.927 --> 01:24:45.534 be bombarded with all kinds of things, some of which we don't know anything 01:24:45.534 --> 01:24:47.564 about, but we do know that people. 01:24:47.984 --> 01:24:51.674 Behave differently and they come back different just from the 01:24:51.674 --> 01:24:52.904 International Space Station. 01:24:53.311 --> 01:24:54.991 Not a big difference, but different. 01:24:55.051 --> 01:24:59.221 And sometimes behaviors are problematic as well, too. 01:24:59.581 --> 01:25:03.841 One of the, um, dark secrets of the Russian space program, as it turned 01:25:03.841 --> 01:25:08.791 out, was a lot of their cosmonauts, and they were in really crazy 01:25:08.791 --> 01:25:13.181 conditions, came back and they had serious problems with depression. 01:25:13.681 --> 01:25:16.921 I'm talking about, you know, like bipolar disorders, uh, almost 01:25:16.921 --> 01:25:19.261 like, almost that, that problematic. 01:25:19.891 --> 01:25:23.161 Um, and so, so I'll cut to the punchline, I said, yeah. 01:25:23.161 --> 01:25:26.671 So you should be sending a shaman on the crew to Mars. 01:25:26.941 --> 01:25:27.721 And why? 01:25:28.081 --> 01:25:32.911 Because a shaman knows how to be lucid inside a hallucination 01:25:33.419 --> 01:25:34.759 Gab: Oh, that's interesting. 01:25:35.259 --> 01:25:40.662 Don Hill: Isn't it though, So again, paranormal research has 01:25:40.662 --> 01:25:46.872 gravitas now that we should be able to investigate without all the other 01:25:46.872 --> 01:25:48.792 noise and nonsense associated with it. 01:25:49.316 --> 01:25:51.236 If we wanna go off planet. 01:25:51.911 --> 01:25:54.341 Now, I have no doubt our machines are gonna go off planet. 01:25:54.761 --> 01:25:56.531 The fact that I said I think it's gonna happen. 01:25:57.057 --> 01:26:02.547 Our robots, whatever you choose to call 'em, will be endowed with our aspirations. 01:26:03.252 --> 01:26:07.002 And maybe those robots will need a genesis story about where they came 01:26:07.002 --> 01:26:09.462 from as where they go out into space. 01:26:09.762 --> 01:26:12.882 But there are some very serious people that I've talked to that 01:26:13.122 --> 01:26:17.922 suggest that we're the robots, human beings that have been sent off. 01:26:18.372 --> 01:26:20.082 But I'll leave that for another conversation. 01:26:20.582 --> 01:26:22.982 Gab: I've considered something similar to that myself. 01:26:23.482 --> 01:26:24.567 Don Hill: Well, there you go. 01:26:25.067 --> 01:26:25.742 It's okay. 01:26:25.747 --> 01:26:26.672 It's, it's safe here. 01:26:26.702 --> 01:26:27.572 You can talk about this. 01:26:27.812 --> 01:26:29.162 Besides, this is your show. 01:26:29.342 --> 01:26:30.242 You can do whatever you want. 01:26:30.885 --> 01:26:32.265 What else would you like to talk about? 01:26:32.265 --> 01:26:33.975 Or we could do this again if you wish. 01:26:34.267 --> 01:26:36.710 Jody: I'm just, my brain is spinning right now to tell you the truth. 01:26:37.485 --> 01:26:40.185 Don Hill: Well, may maybe, maybe it's time to sit down a bit and quick, you 01:26:40.185 --> 01:26:45.558 know, and, uh, have a cup of coffee and, you know, think about the spring. 01:26:45.708 --> 01:26:46.518 Think about the spring. 01:26:46.578 --> 01:26:51.528 No snow, you know, flowers are blooming, you know, that kind of thing. 01:26:52.098 --> 01:26:52.488 Yeah. 01:26:52.788 --> 01:26:57.138 Um, I'm adding slowly but surely some of the, um, hardware that I've 01:26:57.138 --> 01:27:01.608 had, I recorded conversation and everything from analog audio tape 01:27:01.608 --> 01:27:06.948 to audio cassettes to digital audio tape, which sadly, uh, I've had to, 01:27:07.008 --> 01:27:08.658 um, I've had some problems with them. 01:27:09.348 --> 01:27:12.938 Um, mini disks, Sony mini disks, if anybody remembers these things 01:27:13.032 --> 01:27:13.372 Jody: oh yeah. 01:27:13.472 --> 01:27:15.342 Don Hill: Uh, if the whole, yeah, it's the whole lot. 01:27:15.552 --> 01:27:18.642 And then I got CD rot and they had to recover some things. 01:27:18.642 --> 01:27:24.018 And the beauty about it for me was the tools that I have now, uh, like Adobe 01:27:24.018 --> 01:27:26.688 Enhance, for example, as a podcast, you should probably aware of this. 01:27:27.228 --> 01:27:30.318 Adobe Enhanced can take just about any rotten conversation. 01:27:30.318 --> 01:27:34.008 I'm talking about technical and bring it up to a broadcast standard. 01:27:34.488 --> 01:27:39.168 And so I've been using these tools, uh, selectively and in some cases 01:27:39.168 --> 01:27:42.618 reconstructing conversations that, that basically have fallen apart. 01:27:43.068 --> 01:27:47.898 Uh, and I'm happy to do that, uh, because I realized I was privileged 01:27:47.898 --> 01:27:52.968 at the time just to take things into a circle, is that people were taking 01:27:53.358 --> 01:27:54.888 the stories I was telling seriously. 01:27:55.278 --> 01:27:59.358 Because at the time the veneer was, I was working at the Canadian 01:27:59.358 --> 01:28:03.048 Broadcasting Corporation, your version of National Public Radio, 01:28:03.498 --> 01:28:04.758 which has a certain gravitas. 01:28:05.328 --> 01:28:09.018 If I was just, you know, Don on the corner going on like I do, it 01:28:09.018 --> 01:28:10.428 would've been just been more noise. 01:28:10.848 --> 01:28:17.498 Um, let's put it this way, of the 25 to 30 years of coast to coast, what remains? 01:28:17.788 --> 01:28:18.630 Gab: The recordings. 01:28:18.865 --> 01:28:19.255 Jody: Yeah. 01:28:19.755 --> 01:28:23.985 Don Hill: But what sticks Audiences diminished from 14 million to whatever. 01:28:24.135 --> 01:28:26.295 It's still an impressive audience, don't get me wrong. 01:28:26.865 --> 01:28:32.355 But it was a, a lot of entertainment there and he used that. 01:28:32.355 --> 01:28:36.465 I gave him great credit for this as a means to get other information 01:28:36.465 --> 01:28:39.675 out there, but I don't think we need the entertainment anymore. 01:28:39.675 --> 01:28:43.245 And I think that's where you and I, Gabrielle and Jody, we agree. 01:28:43.537 --> 01:28:43.825 Gab: Yeah. 01:28:44.070 --> 01:28:44.700 Definitely 01:28:44.730 --> 01:28:45.380 Jody: Trying to get there. 01:28:45.770 --> 01:28:46.070 Gab: Yeah. 01:28:46.980 --> 01:28:47.945 We have to get outta the box. 01:28:48.367 --> 01:28:53.106 Don Hill: Well, if I can let me, lemme put it to you this way, if I can be helpful. 01:28:53.436 --> 01:28:55.296 Tell me what I agreed to. 01:28:55.706 --> 01:28:56.266 Jody: okay. 01:28:56.516 --> 01:28:57.096 Gab: okay. 01:28:57.620 --> 01:28:58.100 All right. 01:28:59.958 --> 01:29:00.848 Don Hill: I hear this. 01:29:00.878 --> 01:29:02.208 What does he mean by that by that? 01:29:02.418 --> 01:29:02.863 We don't know yet. 01:29:03.495 --> 01:29:04.995 Jody: Well you're Well you're a philosopher, I get that. 01:29:05.245 --> 01:29:05.455 Gab: Yeah. 01:29:06.805 --> 01:29:07.075 Don Hill: Yeah, 01:29:07.325 --> 01:29:11.818 Gab: what do you think about the research that we're looking into with trying 01:29:11.908 --> 01:29:17.728 to reconnect to that like, you know, divine, for lack of a better word, like 01:29:17.788 --> 01:29:20.098 aspect that we've lost in the darkness? 01:29:20.598 --> 01:29:25.038 Don Hill: Well, what, what I'm, what I'm getting at is the reason why 01:29:25.038 --> 01:29:30.918 we are having this conversation is because it helps you get past the 01:29:30.918 --> 01:29:32.708 things you don't have to look into 01:29:33.023 --> 01:29:33.328 Jody: okay. 01:29:33.488 --> 01:29:36.878 Don Hill: in other words, as a re, as a resource, uh, every 01:29:36.878 --> 01:29:38.948 generation, it, it's actually known. 01:29:39.308 --> 01:29:42.668 Uh, I'm not suggesting any, everybody needs to be a Roman Catholic. 01:29:42.668 --> 01:29:43.538 That's not what I'm saying. 01:29:44.108 --> 01:29:51.098 But in Roman Catholicism, there is, uh, Pope Gregory, yes, Pope Gregory, you 01:29:51.098 --> 01:29:52.688 know, the guy with the Gregorian chant, 01:29:52.946 --> 01:29:53.166 Gab: Yes. 01:29:53.768 --> 01:29:54.008 Don Hill: Yeah. 01:29:54.308 --> 01:29:57.458 But what is less well known, and maybe I've got my Catholicism wrong 01:29:57.458 --> 01:30:00.338 here, is something called apologetics. 01:30:00.838 --> 01:30:01.768 Apologetics. 01:30:01.768 --> 01:30:04.048 And it doesn't mean everybody falls down on their face and begs 01:30:04.048 --> 01:30:06.448 for forgiveness or it's apologia. 01:30:07.511 --> 01:30:10.901 What it means is that there's a set of stories that every 01:30:10.901 --> 01:30:12.611 generation needs to know. 01:30:12.941 --> 01:30:18.101 We will call it the perennial wisdom, and it's the obligation of every generation 01:30:18.101 --> 01:30:22.931 thereafter to tell that stories to the generation that's coming up. 01:30:23.455 --> 01:30:27.595 Our issue right now, and I think this is where you're coming from, is we 01:30:27.805 --> 01:30:32.215 chose to reject these stories and found. 01:30:32.465 --> 01:30:36.306 As it turns out, there was truth to these stories that they were being 01:30:36.306 --> 01:30:42.786 told in the best way possible, given their circumstances and the technology 01:30:42.786 --> 01:30:48.156 available, whether it's rock art, meaning graphs and petroglyphs carved into the 01:30:48.156 --> 01:30:53.196 side of mountains, or for that matter, caves, people, human beings were saying. 01:30:53.406 --> 01:30:56.076 Let's just think about that for a moment, just for a second more. 01:30:56.526 --> 01:30:59.166 I'm going to add just one more thing here, a piece of the action. 01:30:59.646 --> 01:31:02.711 I had, uh, the luxury of speaking to Jean Clottes. 01:31:03.306 --> 01:31:03.786 Who's he? 01:31:03.846 --> 01:31:09.126 He's the chief archeologist for France, and he was in the Chauvet Caves, which 01:31:09.156 --> 01:31:11.526 was discovered uh, in the last century. 01:31:11.856 --> 01:31:16.116 And um, uh, Warner Herzog did a film with, uh, Jean Clottes, uh, 01:31:16.116 --> 01:31:17.766 called The Cave of Forgotten Dreams. 01:31:18.306 --> 01:31:20.701 But my conversation was before that with Jean Clottes. 01:31:21.246 --> 01:31:24.546 There's a film I did about this, and I can point people toward that later. 01:31:25.026 --> 01:31:28.056 Um, and Clottes said to me that, stop me in my tracks. 01:31:28.566 --> 01:31:34.046 Let's remember friends, that the people who were doing the cave 01:31:34.046 --> 01:31:36.786 art, they were trained artists. 01:31:37.286 --> 01:31:40.346 These people were trained, they were chosen people, and that the 01:31:40.346 --> 01:31:45.266 people who chose them had to work hard as hunter gatherers to give 01:31:45.266 --> 01:31:47.576 them the resources to do that art. 01:31:48.176 --> 01:31:52.899 This is amazing that peoples who are doing hunter gathering, you know, set 01:31:52.899 --> 01:31:57.223 aside resources that was important for them to record these memories. 01:31:57.759 --> 01:31:59.819 I think we're in a similar position, but different. 01:32:00.076 --> 01:32:00.286 Gab: Yeah. 01:32:00.619 --> 01:32:01.589 Don Hill: At our time. 01:32:01.939 --> 01:32:06.749 And that's why we do need to support artists, not activists. 01:32:06.899 --> 01:32:07.859 There's a difference. 01:32:08.789 --> 01:32:11.039 If an artist comes to you and you don't understand what they're 01:32:11.039 --> 01:32:12.779 talking about, that's good. 01:32:13.049 --> 01:32:14.399 That means they're onto something new. 01:32:14.949 --> 01:32:15.299 Gab: Right, 01:32:15.479 --> 01:32:17.729 Don Hill: If an activist comes up to you and tells you to 01:32:17.729 --> 01:32:19.649 pick a side, that's not art. 01:32:20.149 --> 01:32:20.499 Gab: Right. 01:32:20.929 --> 01:32:21.359 Don Hill: Okay? 01:32:22.329 --> 01:32:24.179 so I know it's tough right now. 01:32:24.179 --> 01:32:26.056 Folks support the artist. 01:32:26.056 --> 01:32:29.356 Science and artists need to work together now. 01:32:29.716 --> 01:32:31.396 This is our time now. 01:32:31.426 --> 01:32:32.896 Uh, it's Sunday when we're talking. 01:32:32.896 --> 01:32:36.211 You can see while I'm evangelizing here, but at the same breath, I, 01:32:36.216 --> 01:32:39.886 I, I sincerely believe that it's been a rewarding life for me. 01:32:40.386 --> 01:32:41.226 Very rewarding. 01:32:41.496 --> 01:32:46.619 And our job, if you choose to accept it, is to be explainers to people 01:32:46.619 --> 01:32:50.579 who don't completely understand what those other guys are going on about. 01:32:51.149 --> 01:32:53.009 We've got our feet in both places. 01:32:53.459 --> 01:32:55.399 Sometimes you get mistaken to the enemy. 01:32:55.429 --> 01:32:55.939 That's true 01:32:56.070 --> 01:32:56.369 Gab: Right. 01:32:56.399 --> 01:32:57.659 Don Hill: 'Cause we're so far out ahead. 01:32:58.049 --> 01:33:02.579 But our job is to explain things to people who want to understand. 01:33:03.073 --> 01:33:04.843 Activists don't want to understand. 01:33:04.993 --> 01:33:07.243 They just want to be fascists and control you. 01:33:07.626 --> 01:33:08.676 Forget about those guys. 01:33:08.886 --> 01:33:10.206 This too will pass. 01:33:10.476 --> 01:33:12.276 It's part of our natural human history. 01:33:12.846 --> 01:33:16.266 It comes up over and over and over and over again. 01:33:16.596 --> 01:33:20.176 But the good news like spring, winter, eventually goes away. 01:33:20.802 --> 01:33:21.046 Gab: Right. 01:33:21.546 --> 01:33:23.856 Don Hill: Well, there's a positive note I struck there. 01:33:23.856 --> 01:33:24.546 Holy moly. 01:33:24.846 --> 01:33:27.816 Jody: Well, I'm just hoping that the AI doesn't take the artists away because 01:33:27.816 --> 01:33:30.850 I think artists are something that we need because they are creators. 01:33:31.362 --> 01:33:31.416 Gab: Yeah. 01:33:31.416 --> 01:33:32.466 Jody: You know, there's something that's 01:33:32.536 --> 01:33:32.826 Don Hill: Yeah. 01:33:32.836 --> 01:33:33.896 Jody: inspired there, so. 01:33:34.436 --> 01:33:34.736 Don Hill: Yeah. 01:33:34.796 --> 01:33:36.656 And, and remember the discrimination. 01:33:36.686 --> 01:33:40.946 I can do this because I'm a, I've been, I get arts grants and I use 01:33:40.946 --> 01:33:42.326 them, but I also work with scientists. 01:33:42.801 --> 01:33:43.021 Jody: Mm. 01:33:43.406 --> 01:33:47.816 Don Hill: But at the end of the day, act, there's a huge discrimination in 01:33:47.816 --> 01:33:51.596 my mind between activists and artists. 01:33:52.069 --> 01:33:52.519 Huge. 01:33:53.209 --> 01:33:54.529 I support the artists. 01:33:55.279 --> 01:33:59.269 I don't support activism of any sort at this point, because it just leads 01:33:59.269 --> 01:34:01.489 to people just yelling at each other. 01:34:02.029 --> 01:34:04.849 They can't hear each other 'cause everybody's too busy yelling. 01:34:05.149 --> 01:34:06.439 This is where the art guide comes 01:34:06.454 --> 01:34:06.744 Jody: Yeah. 01:34:06.859 --> 01:34:07.369 Don Hill: You know what I mean? 01:34:07.669 --> 01:34:08.299 It's crazy. 01:34:08.774 --> 01:34:10.984 Uh, I, I don't want Gabrielle to do this. 01:34:11.144 --> 01:34:11.434 Okay. 01:34:11.944 --> 01:34:13.584 Jody, just play with me for a minute. 01:34:13.584 --> 01:34:16.854 Say something really obnoxious to me, like the, the worst thing 01:34:16.854 --> 01:34:18.054 you ever heard from an activist. 01:34:18.234 --> 01:34:19.674 Just do that for fun. 01:34:19.974 --> 01:34:22.764 You can edit this out if you need to go say something. 01:34:23.034 --> 01:34:23.844 Jody: oh, it's terrible. 01:34:24.024 --> 01:34:24.804 I didn't want to yell at you. 01:34:25.294 --> 01:34:26.124 You've been such a great guest 01:34:26.189 --> 01:34:26.429 Don Hill: What? 01:34:26.504 --> 01:34:29.341 Jody: but is that a dog barking? 01:34:29.391 --> 01:34:30.011 Don Hill: You see I mean? 01:34:30.801 --> 01:34:31.091 Yeah. 01:34:31.306 --> 01:34:34.216 Just bark, just bark back at them because that's what it is, barking. 01:34:34.426 --> 01:34:34.776 Right? 01:34:35.186 --> 01:34:35.476 Gab: Yeah. 01:34:35.476 --> 01:34:35.674 Jody: Yeah. 01:34:36.113 --> 01:34:36.463 Gab: And it's unexpected 01:34:36.538 --> 01:34:37.808 Don Hill: It's not conversation 01:34:38.064 --> 01:34:39.137 It's not dialogue. 01:34:39.137 --> 01:34:40.187 Jody: No, it's not productive. 01:34:40.975 --> 01:34:41.277 Yeah. 01:34:41.387 --> 01:34:41.647 I get it. 01:34:41.907 --> 01:34:45.247 Don Hill: So what you have to do is get, get completely absurd. 01:34:45.637 --> 01:34:49.237 And then when I've done that to people, they break out into a smile 01:34:49.807 --> 01:34:51.307 when they realize just, what happened. 01:34:51.697 --> 01:34:52.927 And that's what I also wanted. 01:34:52.927 --> 01:34:54.717 We need to be a little lighter. 01:34:54.818 --> 01:34:55.528 We need humor. 01:34:55.658 --> 01:34:56.998 Gab: Yeah, we definitely do. 01:34:57.284 --> 01:34:58.514 Don Hill: It's the human condition. 01:34:58.814 --> 01:34:59.804 It's a bit of a joke. 01:34:59.804 --> 01:35:02.984 I'm not talking about we need to be a Samuel Beckett play, Waiting 01:35:02.984 --> 01:35:05.864 for Godot, you know, that's pretty, you know, that's intense. 01:35:06.719 --> 01:35:10.124 But, but at the same time, uh, maybe more. 01:35:10.124 --> 01:35:15.264 And Marx Brothers, if it's gonna be Marks 2.0, let it be Groucho Marks. 01:35:15.604 --> 01:35:15.724 Okay. 01:35:15.914 --> 01:35:16.129 Gab: Yeah. 01:35:16.859 --> 01:35:21.449 Don Hill: Uh, then again, I don't know, I, I suppose you could fire me 01:35:21.449 --> 01:35:23.099 right now and we'll see what happens. 01:35:26.262 --> 01:35:27.007 See, you got it. 01:35:27.282 --> 01:35:27.582 Right. 01:35:27.702 --> 01:35:29.442 And I didn't have to say anything. 01:35:29.892 --> 01:35:32.652 I didn't have, that's how it's set up right now. 01:35:32.652 --> 01:35:33.642 I should leave you with this thought. 01:35:33.702 --> 01:35:38.922 Michael Persinger had a tremendous sense of humor, and he would use what I just 01:35:38.922 --> 01:35:44.409 did, all the cultural references to bring people into the tent that they 01:35:44.409 --> 01:35:48.552 were scared to enter into because it might hurt their reputations, maybe 01:35:48.552 --> 01:35:50.172 will have an impact on their careers. 01:35:50.602 --> 01:35:54.292 I'm happy to report that a lot of the progeny of Michael Persinger's 01:35:54.312 --> 01:35:58.992 group are in, not just labs in the world of substance, they're 01:35:58.992 --> 01:36:00.432 actually making a difference. 01:36:00.792 --> 01:36:04.812 Uh, Norcia Morgan, for example, has just had a paper recently, uh, 01:36:05.112 --> 01:36:09.162 brought into science, you know, that little newspaper of record for 01:36:09.162 --> 01:36:11.412 science, uh, and nature as well. 01:36:11.412 --> 01:36:15.852 And they're advancing these ideas, but they're doing it scientifically. 01:36:15.852 --> 01:36:18.822 And I would point you in that direction as well as where the 01:36:18.822 --> 01:36:23.622 progeny is and where whom they're teaching and they're working with. 01:36:23.922 --> 01:36:27.095 That's the generation that's probably gonna have the most fun because they'll 01:36:27.095 --> 01:36:30.995 have the most toys to play with that we simply didn't have even 10 years ago. 01:36:31.495 --> 01:36:32.395 Gab: Oh definitely. 01:36:32.895 --> 01:36:33.315 Don Hill: Yeah. 01:36:33.720 --> 01:36:34.010 Okay. 01:36:34.015 --> 01:36:36.735 So my question to you is, Gabrielle, 01:36:36.900 --> 01:36:37.170 Gab: Yeah. 01:36:37.670 --> 01:36:41.420 Don Hill: you can do anything you want in the world. 01:36:41.870 --> 01:36:44.870 I've made you queen of the matrices. 01:36:46.507 --> 01:36:47.827 Any mathematicians out there? 01:36:47.827 --> 01:36:50.287 You can do anything you want, but it's only one thing. 01:36:50.707 --> 01:36:51.337 What would it be? 01:36:51.837 --> 01:36:53.427 Gab: Oh, I don't know. 01:36:54.192 --> 01:36:57.432 Don Hill: Okay, then next time we talk, next time we talk, I want an answer. 01:36:58.052 --> 01:36:59.362 Jody, you heard the question? 01:36:59.662 --> 01:37:03.359 I just made you supreme ruler of the multiverses, but 01:37:03.359 --> 01:37:04.409 you can only do one thing. 01:37:04.909 --> 01:37:05.629 What would that be? 01:37:06.169 --> 01:37:07.159 And we should talk again. 01:37:07.604 --> 01:37:08.804 Jody: Yeah, I gotta think about that. 01:37:08.849 --> 01:37:10.679 Gab: Yeah, we should definitely talk again. 01:37:11.094 --> 01:37:12.889 Don Hill: and that, and that's why I'm saying I want you 01:37:12.889 --> 01:37:13.909 to think about these things. 01:37:14.239 --> 01:37:15.949 We said a lot of things here today. 01:37:15.979 --> 01:37:17.749 We've been going on for almost two hours 01:37:17.944 --> 01:37:18.212 Gab: Yeah, 01:37:18.439 --> 01:37:18.649 Jody: Yeah. 01:37:19.895 --> 01:37:22.055 Don Hill: And, uh, we don't wanna scare people because, you know, 01:37:22.055 --> 01:37:23.225 there's too much information. 01:37:23.405 --> 01:37:27.885 Remember, I've been living in this soup, so to speak, since , the early nineties. 01:37:28.202 --> 01:37:28.942 Meaning the 1990s. 01:37:29.809 --> 01:37:33.312 I didn't expect to be here, but this is where it led. 01:37:33.812 --> 01:37:34.472 Jody: Sounds familiar. 01:37:35.112 --> 01:37:35.432 Gab: Yeah. 01:37:35.492 --> 01:37:35.692 Yeah. 01:37:35.752 --> 01:37:37.032 Sometimes it finds you 01:37:37.336 --> 01:37:37.662 Don Hill: Yeah. 01:37:38.049 --> 01:37:38.649 I thought so. 01:37:38.774 --> 01:37:40.934 I thought you, I thought you'd appreciate that sentiment. 01:37:41.084 --> 01:37:41.354 Yeah. 01:37:41.847 --> 01:37:45.177 Alright, um, what else should we talk about before we go away? 01:37:45.237 --> 01:37:46.287 Or I go away anyway? 01:37:46.587 --> 01:37:49.897 Jody: I mean, we had a list of questions here, but we totally, we 01:37:49.897 --> 01:37:53.047 didn't see it going this way, and I mean, it's been very informative. 01:37:53.077 --> 01:37:53.527 Gab: Yeah. 01:37:53.572 --> 01:37:54.712 Really interesting. 01:37:55.070 --> 01:37:57.165 Don Hill: Well, I'm, I'm taking you seriously. 01:37:57.585 --> 01:37:58.065 Okay. 01:37:58.465 --> 01:38:04.769 And I should also say that Michael Persinger, if you came to him with 01:38:04.769 --> 01:38:08.089 a serious question and you had worked upon it and you thought 01:38:08.089 --> 01:38:09.935 about it, he didn't dismiss it. 01:38:10.425 --> 01:38:14.599 If he heard of an experiment that could be done, he would say these 01:38:14.599 --> 01:38:17.509 four words: "sounds like a plan". 01:38:18.929 --> 01:38:19.829 And then they would do it. 01:38:20.079 --> 01:38:20.319 Okay. 01:38:20.379 --> 01:38:21.009 Then they would do it. 01:38:21.339 --> 01:38:24.609 If you came to him with some frivolous thing, you know, that you haven't 01:38:24.609 --> 01:38:27.762 really thought about, just threw it against the wall to see what stick. 01:38:28.225 --> 01:38:30.265 You wouldn't have much time with Michael Persinger. 01:38:30.642 --> 01:38:32.712 Um, and you would be dismissed. 01:38:32.772 --> 01:38:34.632 Sometimes he was thought to be cart. 01:38:35.132 --> 01:38:39.035 He didn't suffer fools and he certainly didn't have time for stupid people. 01:38:39.362 --> 01:38:40.322 I'll say that much. 01:38:40.742 --> 01:38:44.792 Um, but for some reason we got along extraordinarily well. 01:38:45.168 --> 01:38:46.728 Uh, we had a lot of fun. 01:38:47.112 --> 01:38:50.552 Most of our conversations were between two and four in the morning, by the way 01:38:50.752 --> 01:38:51.202 Gab: Oh wow. 01:38:51.232 --> 01:38:53.592 Don Hill: And that's where you're, that's where you're hearing these 01:38:53.592 --> 01:38:57.672 conversations that are recorded, uh, was they were uninterrupted. 01:38:58.032 --> 01:39:01.428 We could go on like we do, uh, at that time in the morning. 01:39:01.732 --> 01:39:03.922 And so I'm saying to all you folks that get up in the middle 01:39:03.922 --> 01:39:06.802 of the night, let's go back to what Gabrielle was saying earlier. 01:39:07.222 --> 01:39:08.542 There's a reason for this. 01:39:08.542 --> 01:39:12.120 It's the wee hours that bring about the best conversation. 01:39:12.620 --> 01:39:13.855 Gab: Yeah, absolutely. 01:39:13.855 --> 01:39:14.185 Don Hill: Yeah. 01:39:14.365 --> 01:39:17.335 So if you're listening to this dear listener and it's three o'clock, 01:39:17.578 --> 01:39:19.318 stop the screaming for God's sakes. 01:39:23.051 --> 01:39:24.311 And it's, it happens, right? 01:39:24.311 --> 01:39:27.521 You know, in the middle of the night you come up with an idea, you and 01:39:27.526 --> 01:39:28.696 you wake up the neighborhood right. 01:39:28.696 --> 01:39:29.546 What's wrong with this guy? 01:39:30.536 --> 01:39:31.466 But it's important. 01:39:31.926 --> 01:39:32.216 Gab: Yeah. 01:39:32.266 --> 01:39:33.886 Don Hill: And this is the time for questions. 01:39:34.246 --> 01:39:38.446 It's the time for if you hear something you don't understand, ask the question. 01:39:38.686 --> 01:39:40.066 What do you mean by that? 01:39:40.456 --> 01:39:46.460 More wars and more differences between people have largely culturally 01:39:46.460 --> 01:39:51.470 arisen because the other side didn't understand what they meant by the 01:39:51.470 --> 01:39:52.670 word that they're talking about. 01:39:52.970 --> 01:39:56.120 Like we read earlier, like religion to bind community. 01:39:56.420 --> 01:39:58.640 Well, how can you be against that? 01:39:58.746 --> 01:39:59.256 Gab: Right. 01:40:00.016 --> 01:40:01.706 Don Hill: Extremist progressive person, you know? 01:40:02.036 --> 01:40:04.166 Or like I said, Marx 2.0. 01:40:04.436 --> 01:40:06.116 How can you be against Groucho? 01:40:07.256 --> 01:40:07.706 Gab: Yeah. 01:40:07.706 --> 01:40:08.966 Don Hill: That's my frame of reference, right?. 01:40:08.966 --> 01:40:09.086 Jody: Right. 01:40:09.546 --> 01:40:11.396 Don Hill: And that's where we're stumbling, we're stumbling all 01:40:11.396 --> 01:40:15.806 over right now, is we're not honestly talking to one another. 01:40:16.136 --> 01:40:20.066 And so, well, what do you mean by whatever the word that you were triggered by? 01:40:20.456 --> 01:40:22.196 And then you go, oh, I don't mean that at all. 01:40:22.196 --> 01:40:27.056 I meant X or Y or Z. Now in my country, I would've said zed. 01:40:27.716 --> 01:40:28.076 Gab: Yeah. 01:40:28.126 --> 01:40:29.296 Don Hill: See what I'm getting at? 01:40:29.796 --> 01:40:29.986 Yeah. 01:40:29.986 --> 01:40:30.256 Jody: Yep. 01:40:30.386 --> 01:40:31.436 It's all ideology. 01:40:31.526 --> 01:40:32.016 Yeah, I get it. 01:40:32.409 --> 01:40:34.079 Don Hill: Yeah and your work is important. 01:40:34.801 --> 01:40:35.971 I'm letting you know this. 01:40:36.091 --> 01:40:36.361 Okay. 01:40:36.751 --> 01:40:38.161 Don't ever think it isn't. 01:40:38.971 --> 01:40:39.451 Jody: Thank you. 01:40:39.640 --> 01:40:40.051 Gab: Thank you. 01:40:41.311 --> 01:40:44.401 Don Hill: you're you're, stumbling your way forward. 01:40:44.461 --> 01:40:45.091 I get it. 01:40:45.421 --> 01:40:46.441 Been there, right? 01:40:46.831 --> 01:40:48.601 But ask the old guys. 01:40:48.781 --> 01:40:52.951 The old guys like me will be happy to let you know, well, you can try that 01:40:52.951 --> 01:40:56.461 kids, but Jesus, you know, I already fell down the stairs and my head, 01:40:56.671 --> 01:41:00.421 or, Ooh, we saw this, but we didn't know what was gonna happen next. 01:41:00.961 --> 01:41:01.831 Interesting right? 01:41:02.071 --> 01:41:02.491 Gab: Yeah. 01:41:02.881 --> 01:41:05.731 Don Hill: If you were, if you were like 17 or 16. 01:41:07.379 --> 01:41:08.074 Jody: I think we lost him. 01:41:15.423 --> 01:41:18.611 Don't forget to check us out at podcast of the paranormal.com. 01:41:18.993 --> 01:41:22.233 You could find links to our social media, links to our episodes. 01:41:22.503 --> 01:41:25.443 You could stream right from the website, or you could listen at 01:41:25.443 --> 01:41:27.303 your favorite podcast provider. 01:41:27.573 --> 01:41:31.323 If you want to come on the show, use our contact form or you can email us 01:41:31.323 --> 01:41:34.593 at contact@podcastoftheparanormal.com 01:41:40.905 --> 01:41:44.170 . Don Hill: You know, we hit the exact, two hour mark and the phone hiccuped. 01:41:44.290 --> 01:41:44.860 Interesting. 01:41:45.317 --> 01:41:46.307 Jody: Is that what happened? 01:41:46.307 --> 01:41:47.117 Are Are you serious? 01:41:47.657 --> 01:41:48.557 Oh my God. 01:41:48.687 --> 01:41:49.147 Don Hill: I'm serious. 01:41:49.187 --> 01:41:51.607 It, it, it was exactly two hours 01:41:51.877 --> 01:41:52.557 Jody: That is strange. 01:41:52.557 --> 01:41:54.047 Don Hill: And it went, we're not doing this anymore. 01:41:54.107 --> 01:41:54.257 Jody: yeah. 01:41:54.257 --> 01:41:54.317 Wow. 01:41:54.437 --> 01:41:54.827 Gab: Wow. 01:41:55.533 --> 01:41:56.893 Jody: I didn't want you to think I hung up on you. 01:41:57.067 --> 01:41:59.702 Don Hill: oh no, I, I look it, I'm so used to technology. 01:42:00.092 --> 01:42:04.172 Back in the old, old days, we used to do what's called the Daily Miracle. 01:42:04.682 --> 01:42:06.092 Um, I'll give you an example. 01:42:06.092 --> 01:42:11.582 I'd be sitting in my studio in Toronto and we've linked to another studio, maybe 01:42:11.582 --> 01:42:15.421 in New York or another round the world and do what we're doing right now, which 01:42:15.421 --> 01:42:16.981 is you just pick up the phone and dial. 01:42:17.311 --> 01:42:19.261 But we had to coordinate satellites. 01:42:19.361 --> 01:42:19.651 Jody: Oh, no. 01:42:19.866 --> 01:42:20.336 Gab: Oh wow. 01:42:20.626 --> 01:42:21.016 Don Hill: Oh yeah. 01:42:21.076 --> 01:42:24.616 Like, this is why I'm saying this is a fantastic time to be 01:42:24.616 --> 01:42:29.206 curious, alive, and having the resources, and that was expensive. 01:42:29.296 --> 01:42:33.886 And if you missed the window for the satellite time, you would get cut off 01:42:34.456 --> 01:42:36.106 and there's no way you could reconnect. 01:42:36.231 --> 01:42:36.831 Gab: Yeah. 01:42:37.188 --> 01:42:37.668 Don Hill: That was it. 01:42:37.668 --> 01:42:38.868 That was the end of the conversation. 01:42:39.078 --> 01:42:40.158 So that's how it was. 01:42:40.458 --> 01:42:43.848 And then we had, when we're doing, when I was doing television, especially what we 01:42:43.878 --> 01:42:49.014 called Eyewitness News at the time, we'd have close to 50 people, five zero people 01:42:49.434 --> 01:42:53.734 working on that show during the day for a one hour daily miracle we called it. 01:42:54.068 --> 01:42:58.567 And now it's two people in the control room, another guy in front, 01:42:58.567 --> 01:42:59.897 you know, going on about the world. 01:43:00.188 --> 01:43:00.974 That's it Three people. 01:43:01.397 --> 01:43:05.114 And so there's no excuse now for upping the game. 01:43:05.144 --> 01:43:08.024 And so that's what I'm getting at with you folks up the game. 01:43:08.024 --> 01:43:10.994 If I can be helpful, I'm an old broadcaster, but I know how to 01:43:10.994 --> 01:43:14.890 get audience, et cetera, um, you might wanna expand your footprint. 01:43:14.920 --> 01:43:15.910 That's what I'm trying to get at. 01:43:16.314 --> 01:43:20.484 Conversations like these might be helpful or they could be a nuisance. 01:43:20.904 --> 01:43:22.764 So think about it and then get back to me. 01:43:22.914 --> 01:43:25.527 Tell me what you wanna do and, and let me be helpful. 01:43:25.707 --> 01:43:25.897 Okay? 01:43:26.080 --> 01:43:27.590 Gab: Okay, yeah, definitely. 01:43:27.700 --> 01:43:28.560 I appreciate that. 01:43:28.660 --> 01:43:29.380 Don Hill: I like what' you're doing. 01:43:29.927 --> 01:43:30.297 Jody: Thank you so much, Don. 01:43:30.927 --> 01:43:33.097 Don Hill: Yeah, I know you do because people in Pennsylvania always do. 01:43:33.187 --> 01:43:36.367 They do, you know, I mean, after all it's close to Ontario, what the heck? 01:43:36.367 --> 01:43:36.507 You know, 01:43:36.507 --> 01:43:37.477 Gab: Yeah, yeah, were close enough. 01:43:37.697 --> 01:43:38.187 Don Hill: We're all the same there. 01:43:38.607 --> 01:43:38.817 Yeah. 01:43:39.357 --> 01:43:41.527 still lousy weather any way you count it right? 01:43:41.527 --> 01:43:42.447 Doesn't matter, you know. 01:43:42.477 --> 01:43:43.027 Gab: Yeah. 01:43:43.097 --> 01:43:44.847 Don Hill: Now, I, I forgot to say one thing. 01:43:44.847 --> 01:43:46.617 Have you been to New Hampshire lately? 01:43:47.057 --> 01:43:48.017 Jody: When was the last time we were there? 01:43:48.055 --> 01:43:50.075 Gab: I think the farthest I've, we did go to Hampshire 01:43:50.245 --> 01:43:51.095 Jody: Yeah we did. 01:43:51.095 --> 01:43:55.450 Gab: we went to New Hampshire in 2024 I think. 01:43:55.585 --> 01:43:55.990 Jody: I think so. 01:43:55.995 --> 01:43:56.225 Yeah. 01:43:56.750 --> 01:43:56.990 Don Hill: Okay. 01:43:56.990 --> 01:43:58.190 I'm gonna suggest this. 01:43:58.190 --> 01:43:58.460 Okay. 01:43:58.790 --> 01:44:01.930 Because it, it'll support some of the stuff I'm talking about 01:44:01.930 --> 01:44:04.750 beforehand, because at this point it's just the three of us talking. 01:44:05.117 --> 01:44:06.497 If it's recording, that's fine too. 01:44:06.901 --> 01:44:10.561 The birthplace of Mary Baker Eddy is in New Hampshire. 01:44:10.582 --> 01:44:11.762 Gab: Oh, I love Mary Baker. 01:44:11.842 --> 01:44:12.062 Eddy. 01:44:13.482 --> 01:44:13.722 Don Hill: Yeah. 01:44:14.135 --> 01:44:15.335 She's a Christian scientist. 01:44:15.335 --> 01:44:17.015 She talked about animal magnetism. 01:44:17.345 --> 01:44:23.726 What is less well known is where she grew up is just rocked with geophysical faults. 01:44:24.146 --> 01:44:25.436 She was a sickly child. 01:44:25.936 --> 01:44:27.526 She couldn't get out of the house much, 01:44:27.833 --> 01:44:28.973 and she's in an area. 01:44:29.033 --> 01:44:33.263 I actually went there and if you find yourself now, I'm not suggesting 01:44:33.263 --> 01:44:34.373 that this is going to happen. 01:44:34.733 --> 01:44:38.483 I'm just saying if you find yourself in that area, you can go to the house. 01:44:38.483 --> 01:44:39.663 You can actually go right up to the house. 01:44:39.773 --> 01:44:40.223 Gab: Oh wow. 01:44:40.533 --> 01:44:41.223 Don Hill: It's marked. 01:44:41.223 --> 01:44:44.373 You can't get into it, but you can go up to, I wasn't interested 01:44:44.373 --> 01:44:45.333 in what was in the house. 01:44:45.723 --> 01:44:49.073 I was interested in the, the geology and the geophysical, 01:44:49.323 --> 01:44:49.613 Jody: Mm-hmm. 01:44:49.706 --> 01:44:53.436 Don Hill: environment that it was in, and sure enough I was getting these kinds of 01:44:53.436 --> 01:44:57.164 you know like, you know, when you get a kind of a Hair standing on in when you 01:44:57.164 --> 01:44:57.494 Gab: Yeah. 01:44:57.494 --> 01:44:57.861 Jody: Yes. 01:44:58.244 --> 01:45:00.994 Don Hill: Take a balloon and you know, but I was getting that kind of thing 01:45:01.114 --> 01:45:05.454 running up and down my left knee or left, left leg and that was a sign to me. 01:45:05.454 --> 01:45:08.994 At least that's my vector, that there's something going on in the environment. 01:45:09.354 --> 01:45:11.707 Part two, walk as much as you can. 01:45:11.707 --> 01:45:15.580 I don't suggest you do this right now, because it's winter, barefoot. 01:45:15.980 --> 01:45:19.860 We tend to be walking around the environment insulated from ground 01:45:20.213 --> 01:45:20.353 Jody: Ohhh. 01:45:20.353 --> 01:45:21.653 Don Hill: With shoes something like that. 01:45:21.783 --> 01:45:22.163 Jody: I see. 01:45:22.173 --> 01:45:25.463 Don Hill: But most of our ancestors didn't have that kind of insulation. 01:45:25.643 --> 01:45:26.753 Certainly rubber wheels. 01:45:26.813 --> 01:45:27.413 They didn't have that. 01:45:27.623 --> 01:45:27.893 Okay? 01:45:28.523 --> 01:45:31.793 So a lot of the other information is literally coming up from the ground. 01:45:32.153 --> 01:45:36.597 If you're familiar with the homuncculus, you know that description of how it looks 01:45:36.597 --> 01:45:37.957 like a kind of a Mickey Mouse thing, 01:45:38.007 --> 01:45:38.397 Gab: Yeah. 01:45:38.397 --> 01:45:40.317 Don Hill: It shows how human beings take in, okay? 01:45:40.467 --> 01:45:42.207 So you see really big eyes, right? 01:45:42.837 --> 01:45:47.397 You see the palms of the hands being very big, but also the bottom of the feet. 01:45:47.907 --> 01:45:48.867 very very big. 01:45:49.347 --> 01:45:50.427 Lots of information. 01:45:50.637 --> 01:45:53.367 So as much as you can as possible without getting weird. 01:45:53.967 --> 01:45:56.097 Walk the ground barefoot. 01:45:56.337 --> 01:46:00.867 Now remember Mary Baker Eddy was the kid, and chances are she'd 01:46:00.867 --> 01:46:01.917 be walking around barefoot. 01:46:02.162 --> 01:46:02.252 Gab: Yeah. 01:46:02.912 --> 01:46:03.692 Jody: I think we're gonna use that. 01:46:03.792 --> 01:46:05.332 Don Hill: Now that's just speculation. 01:46:05.629 --> 01:46:07.489 I'm not saying there's anything to this. 01:46:07.807 --> 01:46:11.617 If you go to the locations like I have and the good people, the 01:46:11.617 --> 01:46:16.087 taxpayers of Canada paid me to go around and look into these places. 01:46:16.087 --> 01:46:19.267 I did lots of documentaries, uh, about what's going on in so-called 01:46:19.267 --> 01:46:22.837 spiritual places all over North America, and in some cases the world. 01:46:22.837 --> 01:46:25.031 Now I got lucky, but you make your luck. 01:46:25.451 --> 01:46:25.633 So you're in a, 01:46:25.633 --> 01:46:25.871 Gab: Yeah, 01:46:25.921 --> 01:46:27.061 Don Hill: position to make your look. 01:46:27.541 --> 01:46:28.921 Okay, that's what I'm getting at. 01:46:29.367 --> 01:46:33.734 Gab: And we oddly enough, Mary Baker, Eddie has a library in 01:46:33.734 --> 01:46:35.864 Boston that houses this really 01:46:35.864 --> 01:46:36.084 Don Hill: Yes she does. 01:46:36.264 --> 01:46:38.063 Gab: Unique, globe, the Mapparium. 01:46:38.486 --> 01:46:40.389 that's like the Christian science, church. 01:46:40.484 --> 01:46:40.789 church 01:46:40.870 --> 01:46:41.140 Don Hill: Yep. 01:46:41.260 --> 01:46:42.850 It's the, it's the, it's the reading room. 01:46:42.880 --> 01:46:43.150 Yeah. 01:46:43.480 --> 01:46:44.530 And, and that's what I'm getting. 01:46:44.770 --> 01:46:44.890 Yeah. 01:46:45.041 --> 01:46:49.121 Gab: We have like the second established christian science church here in scranton. 01:46:49.438 --> 01:46:50.784 It's our children's library right now. 01:46:50.835 --> 01:46:51.975 Don Hill: Well, there you go. 01:46:52.104 --> 01:46:52.524 Gab: Right. 01:46:52.524 --> 01:46:54.144 So it's like all connected. 01:46:54.205 --> 01:46:54.774 Don Hill: There you go. 01:46:54.774 --> 01:46:55.094 Jody: Oh my God. 01:46:55.104 --> 01:46:56.424 Gab: So it's interesting to me. 01:46:56.445 --> 01:46:56.715 Don Hill: Yeah. 01:46:56.984 --> 01:47:00.674 well, it should be because living, you're living among them, so 01:47:00.674 --> 01:47:01.004 to speak. 01:47:01.304 --> 01:47:04.859 Now, , the point is the late 19th century, just to reiterate what 01:47:04.859 --> 01:47:07.019 I was saying earlier, was a time. 01:47:07.664 --> 01:47:11.284 That there was no discrimination by scientists 01:47:11.554 --> 01:47:13.834 to investigate these kinds of things. 01:47:14.261 --> 01:47:17.490 What happens is what happened between then and now. 01:47:17.920 --> 01:47:24.650 But at that time there was another controversial person, uh, is, oh, and 01:47:24.650 --> 01:47:27.830 I should mention, and, uh, I think you, you'll be very interested in 01:47:27.830 --> 01:47:33.260 this, uh, Gabrielle, is that most of the leaders in what I'm talking about 01:47:33.710 --> 01:47:35.780 in the late 19th century were women. 01:47:35.990 --> 01:47:36.710 Gab: Oh yeah. 01:47:36.890 --> 01:47:40.400 Don Hill: whether it was, uh, Christians or for that matter, Blavatsky, Helena 01:47:40.410 --> 01:47:42.500 Petrovna Blavatsky and theosophy. 01:47:43.010 --> 01:47:46.370 But do you know why these women were in these positions? 01:47:46.740 --> 01:47:49.230 Gab: Wasn't, it believed that like, it was easier for the women 01:47:49.230 --> 01:47:51.356 to connect with the spirits. 01:47:51.776 --> 01:47:54.266 Don Hill: Well, that would be one of the things, but they 01:47:54.266 --> 01:47:57.393 could not get into science. 01:47:57.393 --> 01:47:59.793 They couldn't go to university. 01:48:00.213 --> 01:48:04.503 They were discriminated against, but nobody thought anything of women 01:48:04.503 --> 01:48:06.153 going into what they call religion. 01:48:06.363 --> 01:48:07.023 Gab: Yeah. 01:48:07.553 --> 01:48:08.993 Don Hill: And we forgot about that. 01:48:09.493 --> 01:48:09.913 Gab: Yeah. 01:48:09.913 --> 01:48:11.563 Don Hill: we've gone through an era of feminism. 01:48:11.563 --> 01:48:15.136 Nobody in their right mind, including me, will say that women are less 01:48:15.136 --> 01:48:17.146 than men in terms of intelligence. 01:48:17.631 --> 01:48:20.091 That's why there's maybe some of the incidents that we see 01:48:20.091 --> 01:48:21.111 around the world right now. 01:48:21.351 --> 01:48:26.571 There are theocratic organizations that say, you, Gabrielle, are not my equal. 01:48:26.721 --> 01:48:28.221 Well, that's just plain dead wrong. 01:48:28.431 --> 01:48:34.011 Science shows otherwise, but theocracies die hard or ideas like that. 01:48:34.161 --> 01:48:39.771 But they, in the late 19th century, women were discriminated against, with rare 01:48:39.771 --> 01:48:45.201 exceptions, but nobody thought anything of a woman leading a, a movement in what we 01:48:45.201 --> 01:48:48.861 will call a religion or for that matter, what was going on in upstate New York. 01:48:48.891 --> 01:48:50.361 But that's another conversation. 01:48:50.721 --> 01:48:55.611 So we need to understand from the frame of history, I would say how we got to 01:48:55.611 --> 01:49:01.011 where we are now, what to avoid, what perhaps to include, and what questions 01:49:01.011 --> 01:49:05.541 remain that perhaps propose as my good friend Michael Persinger said. 01:49:05.811 --> 01:49:06.861 Sounds like a plan 01:49:07.361 --> 01:49:07.651 Gab: Yeah. 01:49:09.051 --> 01:49:09.291 Don Hill: Yeah. 01:49:09.801 --> 01:49:11.091 But I would say, yeah, may. 01:49:11.091 --> 01:49:13.371 Uh, and it's not just Christian science, by the way. 01:49:13.941 --> 01:49:20.441 Uh, up in, um, I mentioned, um, Dartmouth College is also the seat of a lot of 01:49:20.441 --> 01:49:25.511 very interesting things as well in terms of, um, but that's another conversation. 01:49:25.511 --> 01:49:29.351 Again, I don't wanna take you too far down in these other worlds because 01:49:29.351 --> 01:49:31.031 sometimes they circle back on each other. 01:49:31.061 --> 01:49:34.331 That's the thing I should warn you against is you find, you find yourself 01:49:34.331 --> 01:49:35.711 going in a kind of a weird circle. 01:49:36.041 --> 01:49:37.961 But in this instance, it's a spiral. 01:49:38.411 --> 01:49:38.651 Okay? 01:49:39.371 --> 01:49:42.011 It's whether it's going up or down, I can't tell you. 01:49:42.266 --> 01:49:44.666 Gab: Yeah, I think that's a good way to look at it. 01:49:44.696 --> 01:49:46.016 You're not like circling back. 01:49:46.016 --> 01:49:47.366 You're kind of spiraling. 01:49:47.866 --> 01:49:48.166 Don Hill: Yeah. 01:49:48.496 --> 01:49:48.736 Yeah. 01:49:48.796 --> 01:49:53.146 Moving through a space and that space is being affected as much 01:49:53.146 --> 01:49:55.156 as you are effective in it. 01:49:55.786 --> 01:49:57.196 Uh, and that's, yeah. 01:49:57.436 --> 01:50:00.256 We humans have, uh, a lot more control than we think we do. 01:50:00.736 --> 01:50:06.076 We tend to give away our power, uh, to gurus and all this kind of stuff. 01:50:06.686 --> 01:50:11.461 And I should say line that, um, Jiddu, uh, Krishnamurti said RJ 01:50:11.461 --> 01:50:15.566 Krishnamurti, who was um, at one time thought to be the Maitreya. 01:50:15.616 --> 01:50:16.156 What's that? 01:50:16.516 --> 01:50:21.016 That's the future Buddha that the philosophical crowd had identified 01:50:21.016 --> 01:50:22.906 this kid as a reincarnate lama. 01:50:23.416 --> 01:50:27.706 But Krishnamurti had rejected this, and he became a very good friend 01:50:27.706 --> 01:50:33.406 of David Bohm, BOHM, who was a, a great physicist in the 20th century. 01:50:33.886 --> 01:50:37.486 Um, and his work is, stands up among other things. 01:50:37.846 --> 01:50:40.396 Anyway,  Krishnamurti was being interviewed by, uh, 01:50:40.396 --> 01:50:43.366 Jeffrey Mishlove, who's got a, kind of, had a wonderful show. 01:50:43.366 --> 01:50:48.946 He has another show called Thinking Aloud, which used to be on, uh, PBS, and I think 01:50:48.946 --> 01:50:50.356 there's, uh, some new editions of it. 01:50:50.926 --> 01:50:54.346 So, uh, Jeffrey  Mishlove was a graduate, um, the only graduate. 01:50:54.826 --> 01:50:56.326 A PhD program. 01:50:56.326 --> 01:50:59.626 I think it was like Canada University or something like that in what we 01:50:59.626 --> 01:51:01.516 would call, uh, Paris psychology. 01:51:01.830 --> 01:51:07.083 And, um, so  Mishlove is, Jeffrey Mishlove is interviewing  Krishnamurti, 01:51:07.103 --> 01:51:09.833 and he said, and he says, uh, Krishnamurti, you of course are 01:51:09.833 --> 01:51:14.843 the great guru and  Krishnamurti stuff on doing this from memory. 01:51:15.263 --> 01:51:16.448 And he says, no, no, no, no. 01:51:16.913 --> 01:51:18.773 Definitely I'm not the guru. 01:51:19.613 --> 01:51:23.033 The guru is you, you are the guru. 01:51:23.903 --> 01:51:26.303 Now what could he possibly mean by that? 01:51:26.723 --> 01:51:32.783 It means that we have everything in us to answer any question you might have, 01:51:33.173 --> 01:51:35.303 but you might not like the answer. 01:51:35.903 --> 01:51:37.193 So we give away the power. 01:51:37.453 --> 01:51:37.803 Gab: Right. 01:51:38.303 --> 01:51:38.813 Don Hill: Spooky. 01:51:38.833 --> 01:51:39.083 Huh? 01:51:39.183 --> 01:51:40.133 Gab: Yeah, yeah. 01:51:40.183 --> 01:51:44.893 Don Hill: and so when you're looking into what you're looking into, let's not forget 01:51:44.893 --> 01:51:49.393 that some of the tools that we're talking about, all we've done now is have a 01:51:49.393 --> 01:51:56.703 technology of trance states, a technology of trance to break the consensus trance. 01:51:57.183 --> 01:51:58.533 This is Charles Tart's work. 01:51:59.163 --> 01:52:03.033 Um, again, a transpersonal psychologist who just died two years 01:52:03.033 --> 01:52:04.833 ago, but his work is important. 01:52:04.833 --> 01:52:07.503 He was at the University of California at Davis. 01:52:07.893 --> 01:52:10.233 You know, I've gotta thank you two for talking to me like this. 01:52:10.983 --> 01:52:13.863 Um, it's because it, it brings back a bunch of memories I thought I 01:52:13.863 --> 01:52:15.813 had forgotten, but here they are. 01:52:16.313 --> 01:52:17.423 So I thank you for that. 01:52:17.423 --> 01:52:20.603 And it's a bunch of stuff I talked about today I haven't talked about in years. 01:52:21.145 --> 01:52:21.565 Thank you. 01:52:22.133 --> 01:52:23.876 Gab: Thank you for talking to us. 01:52:23.918 --> 01:52:25.028 Jody: Yeah, really appreciate it. 01:52:25.183 --> 01:52:26.073 Gab: Yeah, we really do. 01:52:26.373 --> 01:52:29.253 Don Hill: Well, um, let's, let's see where this goes. 01:52:29.553 --> 01:52:30.093 How's that? 01:52:30.163 --> 01:52:31.223 Gab: Yeah, definitely. 01:52:31.659 --> 01:52:33.819 Don Hill: you want, to come to Canada, you're welcome. 01:52:33.819 --> 01:52:34.299 You know that, eh? 01:52:34.799 --> 01:52:36.209 Jody: Yeah, we gotta get a passport, huh? 01:52:36.264 --> 01:52:36.894 Gab: We'd love to go to Canada. 01:52:37.109 --> 01:52:37.479 Jody: Yeah. 01:52:37.749 --> 01:52:38.509 Still don't have a passport 01:52:38.684 --> 01:52:39.554 Don Hill: Yeah, well, whatever. 01:52:39.584 --> 01:52:42.404 You know, and, and, but it's, it's increasingly difficult for 01:52:42.404 --> 01:52:44.504 people like me to go into America. 01:52:44.834 --> 01:52:48.164 So how, how I, how arguably I get into America. 01:52:48.164 --> 01:52:49.124 Well, I can get into it. 01:52:49.124 --> 01:52:49.694 Don't worry about it, 01:52:49.762 --> 01:52:50.414 Gab: Right. 01:52:51.284 --> 01:52:54.974 Don Hill: I, don't have to be in New York to be a broadcaster anymore. 01:52:55.514 --> 01:52:57.254 I can do just what I'm doing right now. 01:52:57.404 --> 01:52:58.874 As much as you can do that here. 01:52:59.084 --> 01:52:59.294 Right? 01:52:59.834 --> 01:53:02.624 So what I'm saying is propagate this far and right. 01:53:03.044 --> 01:53:05.534 Encourage people to steal it if necessary. 01:53:05.534 --> 01:53:09.224 I said this earlier these ideas are the perennial wisdom. 01:53:09.554 --> 01:53:09.884 Gab: Yeah. 01:53:10.124 --> 01:53:15.164 Don Hill: our turn to tell people what we already learned from our elders. 01:53:15.374 --> 01:53:16.064 Let's put it that way. 01:53:16.394 --> 01:53:19.964 Gab: Yeah, that's a good, like don't reinvent the wheel, just kind of, you 01:53:19.964 --> 01:53:22.994 know, learn what's already been done and how can you improve and build on it. 01:53:23.494 --> 01:53:25.229 Don Hill: And this will make you happy, right? 01:53:25.679 --> 01:53:31.829 It removes the responsibility, the terror, when we're all 18 years, what can I do 01:53:31.829 --> 01:53:34.079 that hasn't been done 10,000 times before? 01:53:34.889 --> 01:53:35.969 Well, we reversed it. 01:53:36.629 --> 01:53:40.859 How can we tell what's done 10,000 times before in the language of our time? 01:53:41.339 --> 01:53:42.749 In the language of our time? 01:53:43.049 --> 01:53:46.169 And in the language of our time is technology. 01:53:46.414 --> 01:53:46.704 Gab: Yeah. 01:53:47.204 --> 01:53:49.784 Don Hill: And so we need that tension of, you know, uh, 01:53:49.814 --> 01:53:50.924 drawing attention to yourself. 01:53:51.374 --> 01:53:54.704 Um, it's like saying, uh, you're not, I'm not, you're not arguing with me. 01:53:54.974 --> 01:53:56.324 You argue with Plato. 01:53:56.594 --> 01:53:56.954 You know? 01:53:57.321 --> 01:53:57.879 Gab: Right, right. 01:53:58.109 --> 01:54:02.144 Don Hill: Or, or is it, you know, you know, you may be against what 01:54:02.144 --> 01:54:03.884 I'm saying, but Lincoln said this. 01:54:05.359 --> 01:54:05.649 Gab: Yeah. 01:54:07.646 --> 01:54:08.816 Don Hill: you know, all men are equal. 01:54:08.816 --> 01:54:09.656 What a concept. 01:54:10.371 --> 01:54:10.661 Okay. 01:54:11.161 --> 01:54:11.671 Alright. 01:54:11.881 --> 01:54:12.961 So, uh, woo. 01:54:13.261 --> 01:54:13.741 Um, 01:54:14.366 --> 01:54:14.846 Jody: Woo is right. 01:54:15.021 --> 01:54:15.171 Yeah. 01:54:15.171 --> 01:54:15.811 Don Hill: I better have a sip of tea. 01:54:16.831 --> 01:54:17.101 Yeah. 01:54:17.554 --> 01:54:20.914 Now what question do you want me to think about until the next time we talk? 01:54:21.164 --> 01:54:22.614 Jody: Oh, Gab, you want this one? 01:54:22.614 --> 01:54:22.884 Or, 01:54:23.504 --> 01:54:24.234 Gab: I don't know. 01:54:24.274 --> 01:54:25.204 I don't even know. 01:54:25.389 --> 01:54:26.169 Don Hill: Write something down. 01:54:26.319 --> 01:54:26.559 Okay. 01:54:26.679 --> 01:54:27.369 Just send it to me. 01:54:27.509 --> 01:54:27.789 Okay. 01:54:28.487 --> 01:54:29.026 Gab: Okay. 01:54:29.292 --> 01:54:29.552 Yeah. 01:54:29.792 --> 01:54:33.241 Jody: I could tell you one right off, right off the, the cuff right you want 01:54:33.646 --> 01:54:33.976 Don Hill: Okay. 01:54:33.976 --> 01:54:34.396 Go for it. 01:54:34.396 --> 01:54:34.630 Yeah. 01:54:34.944 --> 01:54:37.782 Jody: For whatever reason, and I'm still recording this, I don't know if 01:54:37.782 --> 01:54:40.992 it's gonna end up in the show or not, uh, just to let you know, but I've had, 01:54:41.832 --> 01:54:43.092 I do a lot of dream work. 01:54:43.152 --> 01:54:44.979 I solve problems in my sleep. 01:54:45.308 --> 01:54:48.615 I'm a computer programmer and I come up with solutions in my sleep. 01:54:48.645 --> 01:54:51.165 I, blessing and a curse, whatever. 01:54:51.495 --> 01:54:53.025 But I started getting into this stuff. 01:54:53.305 --> 01:54:57.370 And started going down the rabbit hole of, you know, EMF frequencies 01:54:57.370 --> 01:55:00.720 and low frequency, low EMF and how that affects the brain and all that 01:55:00.890 --> 01:55:01.220 Don Hill: Yep. 01:55:01.300 --> 01:55:07.534 Jody: And I had a dream where I was being told by someone or something how to build 01:55:07.534 --> 01:55:11.604 a device, which was basically something with a dial that you could change the 01:55:11.604 --> 01:55:13.794 frequency up or down with the coil on it. 01:55:14.244 --> 01:55:17.967 And I had no idea what I was being asked to build in this dream. 01:55:18.364 --> 01:55:18.954 And 01:55:18.994 --> 01:55:19.124 Don Hill: Yep. 01:55:19.797 --> 01:55:22.077 Jody: literally a couple weeks ago, probably around the same 01:55:22.077 --> 01:55:23.691 time that you, contacted us, 01:55:24.326 --> 01:55:24.546 Don Hill: Yep. 01:55:24.551 --> 01:55:27.581 Jody: I found the Schumann resonance generators and i'm like, looking at 01:55:27.581 --> 01:55:28.961 this thing and I'm like, oh my god. 01:55:29.021 --> 01:55:29.651 That's the thing. 01:55:29.651 --> 01:55:30.641 'Cause I have a dream journal. 01:55:30.641 --> 01:55:33.080 I, I do little sketches in there and I write stuff down, so. 01:55:33.239 --> 01:55:33.449 Don Hill: Yeah. 01:55:33.449 --> 01:55:36.066 I should, put you in the test with Kevin Soroka. 01:55:36.228 --> 01:55:38.958 Um, we did a paper together about this, but I'm gonna say 01:55:38.958 --> 01:55:40.908 something that will be helpful. 01:55:41.028 --> 01:55:41.208 Okay. 01:55:42.288 --> 01:55:47.868 And then I mentioned Charles Tart before, and he wrote a seminal 01:55:48.288 --> 01:55:53.638 college textbook called, um, altered States of Consciousness. 01:55:53.918 --> 01:55:54.138 Okay. 01:55:54.448 --> 01:55:54.808 Jody: Okay. 01:55:55.028 --> 01:55:56.008 Don Hill: And you can find it. 01:55:56.078 --> 01:55:56.228 Now. 01:55:56.228 --> 01:56:01.748 One of the things that he described, Charles Tart, was Edison, the inventor, 01:56:02.248 --> 01:56:05.428 and how he used dreams for his inventions. 01:56:06.373 --> 01:56:09.493 I think I I this is an important story because it, it directly 01:56:10.033 --> 01:56:11.923 affirms what you just said. 01:56:12.373 --> 01:56:12.403 Okay. 01:56:12.673 --> 01:56:16.713 So what Edison used to do, he used to sleep in a chair, but 01:56:16.713 --> 01:56:19.221 he held in his hand a spoon. 01:56:19.616 --> 01:56:25.006 And after, after he nodded off the spoon, would hit a pan or something 01:56:25.006 --> 01:56:26.926 underneath him and would wake him up. 01:56:27.292 --> 01:56:30.262 And at that point he would write down whatever he had been dreaming. 01:56:30.662 --> 01:56:31.171 Jody: That's cool. 01:56:31.623 --> 01:56:32.056 Gab: Yeah. 01:56:32.512 --> 01:56:36.982 Don Hill: So that, that was how Edison, one of the great inventors of our time 01:56:37.399 --> 01:56:42.199 that we have profited from in terms of technology, late 19th century of course. 01:56:42.619 --> 01:56:48.629 So that's how we use dreams or what has been categorized as the liminal space 01:56:48.729 --> 01:56:49.149 Gab: Right. 01:56:49.269 --> 01:56:52.029 Don Hill: Uh, as a source of invention. 01:56:52.269 --> 01:56:52.779 How's that? 01:56:53.289 --> 01:56:55.119 So this is not a new idea. 01:56:55.619 --> 01:56:59.669 It turns out that Charles Tart traced it back in altered states of consciousness. 01:56:59.699 --> 01:57:03.642 So he traced it back that this was a common practice. 01:57:04.132 --> 01:57:08.512 For example, even with, uh, meditators and we, we'll call Tibetan Buddhists, et 01:57:08.512 --> 01:57:11.362 cetera, uh, including the state oracle. 01:57:11.782 --> 01:57:13.012 So what's the state oracle? 01:57:13.372 --> 01:57:18.712 This is a person whose job is to inform the Dali Lama of future 01:57:18.712 --> 01:57:19.942 events and stuff like that. 01:57:20.182 --> 01:57:24.906 Again, in, in practices that in some cases they put themselves 01:57:24.906 --> 01:57:26.226 into great deprivation. 01:57:26.706 --> 01:57:30.926 Now, I don't suggest you do this, but the so-called vision quest, which 01:57:30.926 --> 01:57:36.386 you've heard about, is often a 72 hour, 48 to 72 hour, staying up for three 01:57:36.386 --> 01:57:39.536 days, very little sustenance, okay? 01:57:39.866 --> 01:57:42.416 And you wait for your vision to come. 01:57:42.676 --> 01:57:43.546 Well, what is that? 01:57:43.576 --> 01:57:47.956 Well, if you talk to a physiologist, they, or somebody who's a forensic 01:57:47.956 --> 01:57:51.266 psychiatrist, they said they were waiting for a hallucination. 01:57:51.284 --> 01:57:51.566 Jody: Right. 01:57:51.917 --> 01:57:52.187 Yep. 01:57:52.726 --> 01:57:55.666 Don Hill: But what if, what if the hallucination turns 01:57:55.666 --> 01:57:59.236 out to be a description of a machine, as you described? 01:57:59.764 --> 01:58:00.114 Gab: Right. 01:58:00.614 --> 01:58:03.434 Don Hill: Um, and again, that's something you might wanna look into. 01:58:03.944 --> 01:58:07.924 The dreams are a theater of invention. 01:58:08.104 --> 01:58:12.094 I don't know, but that's as much as I know and can talk about right now, what 01:58:12.094 --> 01:58:15.124 I'll do is I will revisit some of the other research and I'll send it your way. 01:58:15.454 --> 01:58:19.594 I did do a documentary called Visions and Voices, uh, for 01:58:19.594 --> 01:58:23.004 the CBC oh gee, 26 years ago. 01:58:23.424 --> 01:58:24.624 I'll send you the transcript. 01:58:24.744 --> 01:58:25.224 How's that? 01:58:25.404 --> 01:58:26.161 Jody: Sounds great. 01:58:26.554 --> 01:58:26.824 Don Hill: Yeah. 01:58:27.217 --> 01:58:28.237 And then there's a whole bunch. 01:58:28.477 --> 01:58:29.257 Yeah, there's a bunch. 01:58:29.257 --> 01:58:32.047 I'll do that after I get, after you sign off here, I'll 01:58:32.047 --> 01:58:33.247 just, I'll do that right away. 01:58:33.547 --> 01:58:36.647 What's the best email address to, to send you this as a PDF? 01:58:37.461 --> 01:58:39.958 Jody: You could use the same one that you contacted us through the website? 01:58:40.144 --> 01:58:40.794 Don Hill: Oh, it'll get to you? 01:58:41.888 --> 01:58:41.968 Jody: Yeah, 01:58:41.968 --> 01:58:43.748 Don Hill: it's not gonna end up in, uh, in junk. 01:58:43.948 --> 01:58:44.168 Jody: Nope. 01:58:44.198 --> 01:58:44.848 It'll get to us. 01:58:44.918 --> 01:58:46.028 Don Hill: I don't like being in junk. 01:58:46.148 --> 01:58:47.768 I, it hurts me when I'm in junk. 01:58:47.768 --> 01:58:48.008 You know? 01:58:48.493 --> 01:58:48.773 Gab: I know. 01:58:49.158 --> 01:58:50.548 Don Hill: I'm surrounded by all this horrible stuff. 01:58:51.028 --> 01:58:51.478 Okay. 01:58:52.028 --> 01:58:53.068 Uh, and what about you Gab? 01:58:53.588 --> 01:58:56.338 Almost called you Gabby but Gabrielle what about uh what 01:58:56.428 --> 01:58:57.328 would you like me to look at? 01:58:57.518 --> 01:58:58.268 Gab: Um, 01:58:58.858 --> 01:58:59.548 I don't know. 01:58:59.553 --> 01:59:03.778 I just keep going back to like the connection to 01:59:03.778 --> 01:59:04.978 what we've lost. 01:59:04.978 --> 01:59:06.448 Like we talked about it too, right? 01:59:06.448 --> 01:59:09.418 Like around the time that we stopped our biphasic sleep cycle, 01:59:09.558 --> 01:59:09.818 Don Hill: Yeah yeah. 01:59:10.058 --> 01:59:12.118 Gab: We started the industrial revolution. 01:59:12.118 --> 01:59:15.718 so it was no longer prudent because the factory work started. 01:59:16.218 --> 01:59:20.468 So it's like there's something we lost there, you know? 01:59:20.968 --> 01:59:26.328 Don Hill: But the question is, it hasn't been lost, it hasn't been recorded again. 01:59:26.553 --> 01:59:27.663 Gab: Oh yes. 01:59:27.672 --> 01:59:29.866 Don Hill: So that's all I'm trying to instill there. 01:59:29.866 --> 01:59:30.246 It's latent. 01:59:30.661 --> 01:59:34.026 It's, it's inherent in our physiology, in our humanity 01:59:34.064 --> 01:59:34.576 Gab: Yeah. 01:59:34.676 --> 01:59:38.086 Don Hill: Uh, I mentioned earlier in our conversation, William Burroughs, 01:59:38.086 --> 01:59:43.811 the writer, the beat writer, and his partner Brion Gysin, B-R-I-O-N, 01:59:43.857 --> 01:59:48.916 Gysin, G-Y-S-I-N and Gysin invented something called the Dream Machine. 01:59:49.336 --> 01:59:51.086 If you were listening, Nirvana, yeah. 01:59:51.336 --> 01:59:55.156 And what that was is basically flashing lights at a very specific frequency 01:59:55.696 --> 01:59:59.506 flashing, and you would close your eyes and basically it was eyes wide shut. 01:59:59.536 --> 02:00:02.566 Not the movie, but, uh, and, and it, it works. 02:00:02.746 --> 02:00:06.856 It, it's no difference If you, if we're still recording here, um, it's 02:00:06.856 --> 02:00:11.776 a sort a train, like an Amtrak train, and you suddenly, the sun's shining 02:00:11.776 --> 02:00:15.976 through and you go past a grove of trees and you get that blinking of light 02:00:15.986 --> 02:00:16.236 Gab: Yes. 02:00:16.636 --> 02:00:17.986 Don Hill: And you're staring into that light. 02:00:18.046 --> 02:00:18.286 Yeah. 02:00:18.556 --> 02:00:23.236 And it'll induce, induce non-ordinary states of awareness 02:00:23.703 --> 02:00:26.043 or visions or hallucinations. 02:00:26.283 --> 02:00:27.273 You'll see animals. 02:00:27.483 --> 02:00:30.813 A second thing is that if you, next time you go to Nantucket or 02:00:30.843 --> 02:00:34.983 somewhere like that, and you see waves coming in, you know, with waves. 02:00:35.673 --> 02:00:40.006 Um, and some people have said, you know, um, for example, um, in 02:00:40.006 --> 02:00:44.146 Yukon, in, uh, close to Alaska, there's a town called Whitehorse. 02:00:44.911 --> 02:00:46.201 There are no white horses there. 02:00:46.681 --> 02:00:48.151 Why would they call it white horse? 02:00:48.481 --> 02:00:53.611 Because the river, when it flows up, okay, it's got rapids. 02:00:54.061 --> 02:00:59.888 And the rapids, when you watch them, you begin to anthropomorphize galloping 02:01:00.038 --> 02:01:03.015 white horses coming out of the rapids. 02:01:03.465 --> 02:01:03.705 Okay. 02:01:04.275 --> 02:01:06.525 Now that's, that's our humanity. 02:01:06.765 --> 02:01:10.558 Or for that matter, when you look at clouds, um, again, Jung among 02:01:10.558 --> 02:01:12.748 others talked about this, J-U-N-G. 02:01:13.138 --> 02:01:15.088 We  anthropomorphize clouds. 02:01:15.298 --> 02:01:17.518 Like right now, the clouds you're looking at, let's say you're looking 02:01:17.518 --> 02:01:19.318 at it, why does it look like a dog? 02:01:19.738 --> 02:01:20.458 Is it a dog? 02:01:20.698 --> 02:01:24.358 Well, some human beings way back once said, that's the dog spirit, 02:01:24.858 --> 02:01:27.198 Gab: Oh, that makes sense. 02:01:27.648 --> 02:01:27.948 Don Hill: yeah. 02:01:28.548 --> 02:01:34.188 But, but they're seeing something that is triggering and, you know, a a, a 02:01:34.188 --> 02:01:38.718 kind of a, a two way, two kids with string and, and, uh, you know, tin cans. 02:01:39.443 --> 02:01:39.733 Gab: Yeah. 02:01:39.828 --> 02:01:41.358 Don Hill: It's primitive, but it works. 02:01:41.358 --> 02:01:41.688 Right. 02:01:41.688 --> 02:01:42.403 Gab: Right, right. 02:01:42.903 --> 02:01:43.743 Don Hill: Is that helpful? 02:01:43.763 --> 02:01:44.053 Gab: Yeah. 02:01:44.203 --> 02:01:44.493 Jody: Yeah. 02:01:44.938 --> 02:01:45.178 Don Hill: Yeah. 02:01:45.268 --> 02:01:48.718 Now once you start to adjust that view, you might be encouraged to think, 02:01:48.958 --> 02:01:50.788 well, that's the Native American view. 02:01:51.358 --> 02:01:56.548 Uh, you could say, yes, it is, but it's also the view of many other cultures 02:01:56.848 --> 02:02:00.928 that all arrived at the same place, but from different points along the mountain. 02:02:01.288 --> 02:02:03.928 So in other words, if you point to the top of the mountain, let's just say you're 02:02:03.928 --> 02:02:08.068 in Appalachia, for whatever reason, on the other valley, they're pointing to 02:02:08.068 --> 02:02:11.361 the same top of the mountain, but they will call it by something different. 02:02:11.715 --> 02:02:13.815 All we know is we're pointing at the top of a mountain. 02:02:14.315 --> 02:02:16.235 Our job is to get to the top of the mountain. 02:02:17.300 --> 02:02:18.130 Gab: Right, right. 02:02:19.205 --> 02:02:21.455 Don Hill: And then what you see are other mountains to climb. 02:02:21.920 --> 02:02:22.550 Gab: Yeah, yeah. 02:02:25.950 --> 02:02:28.595 Don Hill: Oh, poor things, other mountains to climb. 02:02:28.595 --> 02:02:30.275 It's all exhausting in the end, you know? 02:02:30.785 --> 02:02:35.350 Uh, you know, anyhow, and again, that sense of humor is important. 02:02:35.665 --> 02:02:35.990 Gab: It is. 02:02:36.496 --> 02:02:38.596 Don Hill: Okay, so that's what I'm getting at. 02:02:38.656 --> 02:02:39.616 I'll look into these things. 02:02:39.616 --> 02:02:44.356 I'll send you stuff, but, um, let's talk again at your convenience. 02:02:44.625 --> 02:02:44.955 Jody: Yes. 02:02:44.955 --> 02:02:46.635 I'd love to pick your brain some more. 02:02:47.564 --> 02:02:50.864 Don Hill: So I'm giving you the, the, the Canadian seal of approval. 02:02:51.164 --> 02:02:53.114 I'll send down some maple syrup or something. 02:02:53.624 --> 02:02:57.404 Uh, that's the stuff that, the stuff that you do is sticky and, 02:02:57.404 --> 02:02:58.874 uh, I wish you all the best. 02:02:59.294 --> 02:03:00.554 And yes, yes, yes, please. 02:03:00.554 --> 02:03:05.453 Let's talk again, if you can point toward what I'm talking about and, uh, 02:03:05.483 --> 02:03:07.883 keep subscribe and that kind of stuff. 02:03:08.393 --> 02:03:12.503 And remember, you don't have to encourage people to, um, it's free. 02:03:12.803 --> 02:03:15.563 But if they do, want to send a few bucks now and again, so I can 02:03:15.563 --> 02:03:17.593 get this new gear I will take it. 02:03:18.710 --> 02:03:20.330 Gab: And people can find you. 02:03:20.450 --> 02:03:24.170 It's donhill.substack.com 02:03:24.490 --> 02:03:24.600 ? Don Hill: Yeah. 02:03:24.890 --> 02:03:25.250 That's it. 02:03:25.310 --> 02:03:27.020 That's, that's the thing I'm pointing toward. 02:03:27.440 --> 02:03:28.790 Um, the other site. 02:03:28.880 --> 02:03:33.260 Well, no, that's where I want you to focus like our, like our laser first. 02:03:33.620 --> 02:03:34.700 And I'll put up the other stuff. 02:03:34.700 --> 02:03:36.230 'cause I don't wanna be a distraction right now. 02:03:36.230 --> 02:03:40.160 I want this and tell your friends, I've gotta bump up the numbers. 02:03:40.490 --> 02:03:42.410 Uh, I've gotta get some more subscribers. 02:03:42.620 --> 02:03:45.920 I've got subscribers right now, uh, and they are helping 02:03:45.920 --> 02:03:46.880 with the freight, so to speak. 02:03:47.300 --> 02:03:50.477 But everything that you and I and, and Jody and Gabrielle have been 02:03:50.477 --> 02:03:55.247 talking about, and I'm including the listener here right now, this is not 02:03:55.247 --> 02:03:57.597 widely known, at least at this level. 02:03:57.697 --> 02:03:58.197 Gab: Right. 02:03:58.317 --> 02:04:01.457 Don Hill: Everything I'm saying, everything I'm saying, you can back 02:04:01.457 --> 02:04:05.207 trace and say, well, you know, that sounded pretty amazing or weird and 02:04:05.207 --> 02:04:07.817 stuff like that, but whoa, I didn't know this, this was happening. 02:04:08.057 --> 02:04:08.987 That's the key thing. 02:04:09.557 --> 02:04:13.097 I don't know is the sign of an intelligent person. 02:04:13.701 --> 02:04:14.631 So let's talk again. 02:04:14.631 --> 02:04:15.501 I'm going go away now. 02:04:15.501 --> 02:04:16.871 He is actually really leaving now. 02:04:16.871 --> 02:04:17.301 I'm going away now. 02:04:17.331 --> 02:04:17.961 I'm going away. 02:04:18.201 --> 02:04:18.771 Bye-bye. 02:04:19.843 --> 02:04:20.126 Gab: Okay. 02:04:20.131 --> 02:04:20.501 Jody: Okay. 02:04:21.451 --> 02:04:22.001 Gab: Thank you so much. 02:04:22.091 --> 02:04:22.571 Bye-bye. 02:04:22.571 --> 02:04:22.931 Jody: Take care. 02:04:23.131 --> 02:04:23.591 Don Hill: Thank you. 02:04:23.721 --> 02:04:23.951 Bye. 02:04:30.860 --> 02:04:32.720 Gab: If you made it this far, thank you. 02:04:33.410 --> 02:04:36.650 We began this journey looking for echoes of the past, but we 02:04:36.650 --> 02:04:40.190 found ourselves standing on the edge of a much deeper frontier 02:04:40.662 --> 02:04:44.011 Jody: It's a lot to process and we invite you to sit with 02:04:44.011 --> 02:04:45.991 these possibilities as we do. 02:04:46.484 --> 02:04:50.576 Gab: In our next episode we'll continue pulling back the veil, diving into the 02:04:50.576 --> 02:04:55.532 experiences and perspectives that defy the singular explanations of the past. 02:04:55.982 --> 02:04:58.652 Jody: Thank you for joining us as we navigate this new chapter, 02:04:59.042 --> 02:05:03.092 Gab: And remember, the world is far more complex than we once imagined. 02:05:03.464 --> 02:05:05.284 Jody: As always, thanks for listening.